It's Supernatural

Sid: I’m speaking to Gary Carpenter at his office in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Gary an Engineer by training truck driver he got saved in 1980. Then about a decade later he wandered into Dave Roberson’s church in Tulsa, Oklahoma and God just arrested him and told him to…well he didn’t tell him to do this but he understood that he must pray in unknown tongues to release the mysteries within him so that he could perform what God had called him from the foundation of this earth to do. And He had been almost floundering for that decade and so what he decided to do was to pray 10 hours a day in tongues while he was driving his truck.  And sure enough after that first session he had a clear visitation from the Lord. And then on February 1994 an audible voice from God called him into full time ministry he was disobedient and for the next 10 months and as a result the door was open for the devil because he was out of God’s will so the devil had a free shot at him and he almost died on December 4^th 1994 but he came to his senses he went into full time ministry God performed a miracle and healed him. And however he was still disobedient and God said “I’m giving you 3 scriptures say them over and over again for what was it 4 hours Gary.

Gary: For 4 hours a day.

Sid: You didn’t do it you almost starved because you weren’t working and you didn’t have money you had over $25,000 in debt. So finally you started doing this and what happened.

Gary: It’s funny I don’t know what it is with me and 10 months but about 10 months later I was doing everything but obeying Him about speaking those verses out loud my mind just could not figure out how that would help anything. Just speaking those words into the air how could that change anything? But the instructions were very clear after 10 months I had nothing to lose the way I describe the way we were at that moment it was like my toes were hanging off the edge of a chasm looking into a bottomless pit of bankruptcy there was just nothing else to lose.  So finally I decided I better obey Him.  Now I don’t know if anybody has every tried this saying just 3 verses saying them out loud over and over again for 4 hours.

Sid: It’s a very difficult thing it sounds simple but the body does rebel the mind does rebel.

Gary: It was the hardest thing, it was took me…those first hours seemed like 3 days I just couldn’t get over how difficult this was. Plus my mind was assaulting me with “This ignorance, this is foolishness, nothing will come of this.” But again I had nothing to lose (Laughing) so I did it. And you would think in those 4 hours I can’t describe to you how difficult it was to make it and I was hoping that the heavens would open and an angel or something would appear and Jesus would ride up on a white horse and would be financially delivered.  But I got to tell you at the end of that 4 hours there was absolutely nothing. Well that was Day l I did it again the next day Day 2.

Sid: For those that are tuning in for the first time what were the four scriptures…the 3 scriptures?

Gary: It was Psalms 34:10 and 2^nd Corinthians 8:9 and Philippians 4:19. And I just said those over and over. Well Week 1 goes by with very little change, Month 1 goes by and I’m still doing it every day with very little change. It was several months I wish I had kept better records I’m thinking maybe 4 months. Looking back at it now I can teach very well what was happening during that 4 months.  It says “Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.” I had been raised in a denomination that engrained in me from a child that if you’re going to have God you also had to be poor. And even though my head didn’t believe that any more my heart still did. And what God was doing looking back on this whole process in hindsight He was taking His word and by me speaking it over and over again He was renewing my mind into believing what the Bible says and not what I had been taught in the denomination. After several months of doing that one day I don’t know how to describe this this is the best way I know how to try something somehow on the inside of me I stepped over some kind of line. And suddenly I knew that God was not a God who loves poverty, He was not a God who likes lack, suddenly I knew that as long as I sought the Lord I myself would not lack any good thing. Suddenly something changed deeper than the mind, something in my spirit crossed over the line and I came home that day with the fire in my eyes and I told my wife I said “We don’t live there anymore.”   And what I meant by there was in the kind of situation we had been in for so long.  And I got to tell you Sid you can mark it on a calendar that was the bottom of our roller coaster ride when it comes to finances. Suddenly my mind and my spirit was open to understanding more about our God and His true nature and the Holy Spirit began teaching me. But then came even more difficult instruction.

Sid: It sounded pretty difficult I mean I know people are saying “What’s so difficult saying 3 scriptures for 4 hours.” I know it’s difficult what’s so difficult is praying in tongues for 10 hours a day I know it’s difficult.

Gary: That’s right.

Sid: But you’re telling me even more difficult what was that?

Gary: Well I tell people all the time you know that when they first hear Dave’s message on praying a lot in other tongues most of them come to the prayer center with the same they say the same thing they say “Well my problem is I can’t hear God.”  But after they’re there for a while and if they do the message they’re going to have a bigger problem than that and there problem is going to be “Oh my God I’m hearing God and You’re not going to believe what He’s telling me.”

Sid:  And I don’t want to do what He’s telling me although it’s the best thing in the world for you and your peanut brain doesn’t realize it.

Gary: (Laughing)

Sid: So what did He tell you to do next?

Gary:  Well and again I have to for the sake of time as He began giving us instructions to teach the word of God and of course we made tapes now. Now by the way when we began our entire equipment for Gary Carpenter Ministries was a 20 year old Panasonic tape recorder and a $10 bill that was our entire assets.  Well as I began to teach I would tape those recordings onto cassette tape and people began asking for the copies of those tapes. Now here’s where His instructions come in now again this is what He told me and I’m not telling everybody this this is what He told me. He says now “Number l: don’t take up any offerings from these people.  Number 2:”

Sid: Can you picture a carnal believer hearing something like that?

Gary: I didn’t believe I was hearing something like that.

Sid: Ah.

Gary: (Laughing) I didn’t know any ministry that operated like this. He also said “When you give them copies of the tapes do not charge them for the tapes give them away free. He says “When you start mailing out tapes” And again I was thinking just these few tapes that we were ministering to at the time he said “Don’t put a return envelope in the package.” And I’m going my Lord can it get any worse?

Sid: What you’re telling me is God’s putting you in a position where if He doesn’t come through you starve.

Gary: Absolutely and He was intending that you know things are very clear with 20/20 hindsight.

Sid: Of course.

Gary: I see what He was doing now He got me in a position where I had to learn how He functions in the earth when it comes to Kingdom finances.  And it was not like I was taught in the prosperity message and it was not like anybody around me had taught me I had no pattern.

Sid: Tell me how long it took you once you had this revelation to get out of $25,000 in debt?

Gary: Oh from the day when I walked in where I was different I believe it was not more than 60 days we were out of debt.

Sid: You’re not asking for money you’re not even sending an envelope. Do you realize that you’re doing everything wrong the fundraisers would pull their hair out over you.

Gary: I know and the last instruction was the worst one. He says “Oh never let a human being every know any of your needs.”

Sid: Oi vey!

Gary: Because I am your source and if you will precisely obey these instructions of mine I will speak to the hearts of the people I choose to support you and the needs of the ministry.

Sid: How long ago was this?

Gary: That was in 1995.

Sid: Has He?

Gary: Has abundantly, He has abundantly.

Sid: Just out of curiosity how did you get out of debt so fast?

Gary: (Laughing)

Sid: I know that it was supernatural but how?

Gary: And again I kind of hesitate and again people says “Well that’s the way He’ll get me out of debt and He has infinite ways of dealing with every person.” In our particular case we owned a rent house for 13 years and the people had remained there the same family had been there the girls had grown-up in that rent house we had wanted to sell it many times but this faithful little family was there and we just couldn’t bring it to tell them well move we want to sell the house. Well now I see it as God’s grace because right about that time they called me and they said “Our daughters have gotten to the place we have to have more bathrooms than this house has we hate to tell you this but we’re going to move.” And I was very nice to them but on the inside I was going “Praise the Name of Jesus (Laughing). And to make a long story short again we sold the house. The proceeds from that house by the way when we walked away from the closing I brought that check home and laid it down beside our debt and the debts were $70.00 more than the check that I had brought home from the closing. And I just thought “That can’t be God because…

Sid: It sounds like a mistake (Laughing).

Gary: “He’s a God of more than enough.” This cannot be right so I hesitated on what to do for a few hours the mailman ran that day in the mail we got a check for $80. I put the $70 with the closing, the check from the closing we paid off every debt that day put it in the mail. We had $10 left I took my wife out to get hamburgers and we celebrated.

Sid:  This week we’re going to clear up some mysteries that should not be mysteries to you anymore. I have on the telephone Gary Carpenter I’m speaking to him at his office in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And Gary got saved in 1980’s God immediately in the Word of Faith teaching it did not work for him until in the early 90’s he began attending Dave Roberson’s church in Tulsa, Oklahoma.  And Dave the first time made it clear as to why it’s so important to pray hours in unknown tongues and how the ministry God has for you is being stopped and blocked, the revelation knowledge the direction. And it can all be unclogged by praying in unknown tongues.  And so Gary was a truck driver and after really analyzing this he decided the Lord told him…well did you decide or the Lord tell you to pray in tongues all of the hours that you were in a truck?

Gary: No that was my decision after listening to Pastor Dave and reviewing and analyzing all of the verses and checking them out for 6 months I came to that decision on my own.

Sid: So he began to pray in tongues 10 hours a day.  And on February 1994 he heard people say “Oh I wish I heard that from God.” But he heard almost an audible if not an audible voice say “I call you to full time work for Me” instead of the world.  And this is your last run quit your job and come work for me. But pragmatic Gary he’s got an engineering background and what do you expect? And he did not do this for 10 months and then on December 4^th 1994 he’s in a cold foggy night in Arkansas he’s in the truck and he pulls off the road he could hardly breathe what was going on Gary?

Gary: Well I am normally a very healthy person I had never had any kind of heart problems in my life but on that night in Arkansas the road was so foggy I decided I was going to have to get off the road it just wasn’t safe to keep traveling. I pulled into a rest area parked the truck for the night and was preparing to get a night’s sleep and then leave the next day. All of a sudden I could not get my breath I couldn’t breathe I remember  I was sitting in the driver’s seat of the trunk I opened the door and turned sideways facing the open door just so I could get some air.  And apparently what happened I blacked out I have no remembrance of the fall. But you know those truck cabs are pretty high and apparently I was unconscious I blacked out and fell and without being awake or conscious I didn’t block my fall with my arms or anything and I landed right on the top of my head right on the asphalt.

Sid: Woo.

Gary: Well I laid there for 6 hours on icy asphalt pavement on a foggy night in Arkansas and thank God it was so foggy because and no traffic was moving in that rest area because the way I fell I was about half out into the street.

Sid: Now you made the point on your yesterday’s broadcast and for those that are listening for the first time you have to reinforce this you said that “This wasn’t God’s form of punishment for not obeying His voice what was it?”

Gary: See the Good Shepherd was leading into ministry that was His call for Gary Carpenter and He had already told me 10 months earlier to the day by the way February 4^th He told me and this was December 4^th almost the same place in Arkansas by the way (Laughing).  And He had told me to come you know follow Him in the ministry to go to work for Him that’s the path that the shepherd was leading the sheep but the sheep refused to go down that path. I was going off on some side trail on my own. Well you know the thief is out there that’s where the wolves are there’s no safety for the sheep if he on purpose goes away from the path where the shepherd is leading. The Psalmist said “Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.” Well I’ve learned it’s best to stay within rod and staff length (Laughing).

Sid:  Hm.

Gary: You need to follow the shepherd close enough you know to be in His protection so it wasn’t God that did that to me but by my own disobedience to…I mean it was nothing about what if…nothing about His instructions that I did not understand. I understood what he had told me to do but I was just not obeying Him.  He protected and covered for 10 months but eventually I got myself out there far enough where the wolf had a shot at me. And I’m convinced he devil was intending to take my life that night I landed right on my head. The next morning the trucks started coming you know the fog was lifting and the trucks were beginning to move and I’m still unconscious on the payment I laid there for 6 hours. The first one around thank God he didn’t run over me but he stopped and him and some other truckers come over and they CB’d they radioed for an ambulance an ambulance came and they put me in it and they took me to the hospital.  I vaguely had some recollection I was sort of in and out of consciousness at that time. They notified my wife and my daughter who came down to the hospital in Arkansas. But I came very close to dying Sid for 2 days I was just in and out of consciousness I’d be awake for a few minutes and I’d drift off again. When I finally came to enough to where my mind was working and I could understand what had happened almost the first words out of my mouth to my wife that I have come to a conclusion I think it would be best if I obeyed God (Laughing).

Sid: Okay thanks so actually what was wrong with you physically?

Gary:  Well that’s another interesting thing that the little hospital in Arkansas did all they could but their diagnostic equipment was not very very modern.  So they never really you know find the source of the problem that wasn’t discovered until I come back to Tulsa.  And to make a long story short they called in supraventricular tachycardia.

Sid: Sounds bad to me.

Gary: Yeah and what that is it’s the opposite of arrhythmia. Arrhythmia is when your heart misses a beat now and then supraventricular tachycardia is where it does a super beat every so often. That in itself is not dangerous but when you start getting a sequence of those all at once like boom boom boom then it vacates the heart of blood and you black out.  And that’s what had happened to me and that’s a pretty dangerous thing for a truck driver as you could imagine.

Sid: Do still have that condition?

Gary: Well no what was interesting too they told me too that condition is always genetic.  I come from a very large family and no one on either side of my family in history has ever had supraventricular tachycardia. So I knew that this was just a blatant attack by the devil. They put me on medication after they discovered what it was that regulated my heart beat and again because of the time factor and they just tell you and of course Pastor Dave prayed for me several times and over a 2 year period again since I had learned to hear the voice of the Lord the Lord weaned me off of that heart medicine a little at a time a little at a time.  I took the last dose of it in May of 1998 I’ve never had another symptom since.

Sid: Question.

Gary: Yes Sir.

Sid: How did you learn to hear the voice of the Lord?

Gary: Primarily through those long hours of praying in other tongues. The whole relationship changed. We started off Monday talking about starting off in the word of faith movement.

Sid: Yes.

Gary: Now the difference was I was coming into intimate contact with the Lord where He was giving me His mind for my life.  See I kind of again whether they intended it or not I kind of had the impression when I was in the word of faith movement that faith is great but it was mainly to get me what I wanted in this life.

Sid: To make you a millionaire?

Gary: Or whatever you know rich, famous or…

Sid: Who would say no to that?

Gary: Give me a giant ministry or whatever it was that you wanted you know but what I found out was if you’ll spend that time in fellowship with the Holy Spirit He brings you in personal contact with the Lord Jesus Christ and you start finding out what He wants for your life. And I started to find out hay it’s best to follow Him.

Sid: Okay you come to your senses 10 months later you almost die, the devil tries to knock you out and then you say “Okay God I’m all Yours.” And now you’re in full time ministry no income you’ve quit your job.  Not only that you have plastic debt credit card debt up around $25,000 did you starve?

Gary: Well I have to admit it was pretty rough in the beginning but would you like to know the reason why?

Sid: Why?

Gary: My continued disobedience (Laughing).

Sid: My goodness would you learn? (Laughing) Where were you disobedient?

Gary: Now aren’t you glad you had me on your program? (Laughing) a great man of faith you know.

Sid: We’re learning a lot I think it’s going to be so…I know you’re teasing me Gary.

Gary: But not really I’m not Sue and I tell people once they every see us in person one thing they find out right away we are as plain as dirt.  We are just your average people with the extraordinary God. And we give people great hope everywhere we go because it doesn’t take them long to realize if God can use Gary and Sue he can use me (Laughing).

Sid: Hm. So I mean you owe this money so did you almost starve?

Gary: Well it was very rough we got behind on everything. See He gave me some more instructions and now that I had firmly decided that we’re taking Step l then instructions for Step 2 came and it’s not at all what I expected. I felt a little bit like Peter must have felt when the Lord told him to go fishing and take up the coin in the fish’s mouth. It is what He said to me made no sense Sid. He gave me 3 verses and His instructions to me He said “I want you to walk the floor and speak out loud with your mouth these 3 verses for 4 hours a day.”

Sid: What were they?

Gary: Psalms 34:10 which is “The young lions do suffer and lack but those that seek the Lord shall not want any good thing.”  And 2^nd Corinthians 8:9 “For we know the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ though he was rich yet for your sakes He became poor that you through His poverty might be rich.” And the 3^rd one was a very familiar one Philippians 4:19 “My God shall supply all of your need according to His riches in Glory by Christ Jesus.”  Now again His voice was very clear that’s the difference when you start pray a lot in other tongues you start hearing His instructions to you it’s not just formula it’s a relationship now.  And I understood what He said, I understood those 3 verses that He wanted me to say them out loud with my mouth for 4 hours a day.  Now the question is did I do that?  No here’s my continued disobedience I did not do it.

Sid: Now had you followed instructions what would have happened?

Gary: Well I know what would have happened because again roughly 10 months later I did start obeying those instructions and I know what happened.

Sid: What?

Gary: Sure enough at that point my mind after…

Sid: Oh we’re out of time Mishpochah come on back tomorrow.

Sid:  My guest by way of telephone is red hot for Jesus his name is Gary Carpenter.  I’m speaking to him at his office in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Gary had been saved for a long time and he had started out in what was known as “Word of Faith Teaching” and it just wasn’t working until one day he went into a church, Dave Roberson’s the pastor of in early 90’s. He listened to Dave’s revelation of what happens, what changes occur in an individual that is Spirit filled and prays for hours at a time in unknown tongues. Based on this challenge at the time Gary was driving a truck he decided that when he was in the truck he would pray in unknown tongues. I mean the first time you did that Gary how long were you able to pray?

Gary:  A typical shift for a long haul trucker is 10 hours on 10 hours off. So my first shift praying in other tongues was 10 hours if you can believe that.

Sid:  Now was that difficult the first time?

Gary:  Was it difficult (laughing)? After about the first… I started off with great gusto with a voice of authority, and speaking rather loud. After about the first 2 hours would you like to know what I had received?

Sid:  Sure.

Gary:  A dry throat and a very sore tongue.

Sid:  Oh my. You know a lot of people would have stopped after that.

Gary:  Well again I had studied the message that Dave had taught for 6 months checking out every verse, checking out scripture. I had listened to cassette tapes I would take them with me on the road during that 6 months and I would listen to them again and again. I would check out every scripture. I was convinced that Dave was right. So the only change I had made because Dave had told us that God’s not hard of hearing. He said you can pray softly and He hears you just as well. So what I did after the first 2 hours I lowered my voice about a normal speaking voice like I’m doing now and I would just pray. Now that first day I have to tell there were times when my mind would drift and suddenly I would become aware that I wasn’t praying in tongues anymore. I don’t know how long I had not you know 5 minutes, 10 minutes who knows. Well I could do was say “Oops! I’m sorry Lord I’ll begin again forgive me.”  I’d start again, now after while it to where my mind wouldn’t drift much like that and I was able to continue praying in other tongues…

Sid:  Now what happened after doing that that first day did anything unusual go on with you?

Gary:  My life… that day was the beginning of the complete change and revolution of our entire lives. Not just for me but for my family, many people that receive our tapes. Now this part is important because nothing happened I didn’t hear God say anything, I didn’t have any visions, I didn’t have anything until sometime during sometime between the 9^th and the 10^th hour.

Sid:  What happened?

Gary:  Thank God I didn’t quit…

Sid:  (Laughing)

Gary:  …after 7 hours, after 8 hours (laughing).

Sid:  Listen there are people listening to us that have been praying in tongues for 20 years and have never prayed in tongues more than 1 hour in their life.

Gary:  And I know I was one of those. I always thought it was nifty that God would give us these supernatural languages but I never understood what they were for until Dave Roberson taught me. Anyway, you asked what happened. I had what I call a teaching vision, let me describe to you what I mean by that. Now thank God when you’re driving an 80 thousand pound big rig through downtown Memphis during rush hour that it wasn’t the kind of vision where everything goes away and you’re transported to another realm.

Sid:  Out of curiosity had you had this type of a vision previously?

Gary:  Not really.

Sid:  Now you’ve been saved for at least a decade, right?

Gary:  That’s right and what scares me now is that I had the teacher living in me all that whole decade but I never knew how to activate His teaching gift until Pastor Dave taught me.

Sid:  So what happened to you?

Gary:  Suddenly I had what I call a teaching vision and the best way I know to describe it is this. I could still see what I was doing, I could see the traffic, but you know how you can remember a scene from a movie, it’s like most people have seen “Gone With the Wind.” You can recall various scenes from that movie even while we are talking now.

Sid:  Sure.

Gary:  It’s very much like that, it’s almost like a memory, it’s almost like a movie playing across the screen of your mind, but you can still see with your natural eyes and comprehend with everything that is going on around you. Well in this vision, and I’ll just briefly describe it, I saw these ellipses like up in the sky, and I saw a man standing on a flat plane of the horizon. Written on those ellipses or circles in the sky were wonderful things like: health, faith, love, joy, peace later I learned He was describing the fruit of the Spirit. The man was looking up at those things from earth and he really wanted them bad he wanted and needed all of those things. As I’m looking at the vision he’s jumping and reaching but there’s no way he can reach up into the sky. I mean they’re there, they are obtainable but not by him because he has no way to get to where they are. They’re in heaven he’s on the earth. In the vision suddenly lines, just like pencil lines almost, were being drawn from these circles down to the man. When they reached the man then the contents of the circle like love began flowing down the line to the man and he was receiving all of those things. I’m going “What are those lines? What is that?”

Sid:  I want them (laughing).

Gary:  I’m watching this unfold before my very eyes. Suddenly on every one of those lines and that word was “Faith.”  By faith you receive from God’s grace. Suddenly all that teaching that I had heard for so many years about the faith message and what faith is, and all the definitions suddenly I understood it in a way that it was personal just for me. It was like the Holy Spirit had designed this vision to communicate it to Gary Carpenter in a way that Gary Carpenter could personally understand it. From that day to this I have never been the same. I know how to receive from my God.

Sid:  Now February 1994 you heard an audible voice from God what did He say?

Gary:  Well He didn’t come as teacher that day He came as Lord (laughing). What He told me was this, He said… I was on a regular trip and He said “This is to be your last trip as a truck driver. When you return back to Tulsa I want you to give your dispatcher 2 weeks’ notice, he will not require it of you and you will be free to serve me full-time. I’m calling you full-time into the ministry.” That was pretty much the message whether it was actually audible I don’t know but it sounded to me like if you had been in that cab of that truck with me you would have heard it.

Sid:  Did you immediately tell your wife and quit your job?

Gary:  I absolutely did not tell my wife?

Sid:  Why?

Gary:  (Laughing) Well my wife is very much a faith woman and led of the Lord with all of her heart and had she known she would have been after me to obey Him.

Sid:  Oh I was thinking the opposite okay (laughing).

Gary:  Yeah it’s not what you think my wife is… the Lord has told me more than once that her heart is even more His servant than mine.

Sid:  So you were afraid to tell her because she would make you do it. You mean you were even hesitant about doing if God told you to do this?

Gary:  Oh I was absolutely hesitant.

Sid:  Why?

Gary:  My real training is in engineering and I’m a very pragmatic person as you know, like you say you are and I imagine you are. We have not met yet I hope to meet you soon, but can I be real can I be honest?

Sid:  Please.

Gary:  I’m going…

Sid:  I mean there’s too much hype and junk out there it’s about time we be transparent.

Gary:  He’s basically calling me full-time into the ministry there’s only one problem with that…

Sid:  What’s that?

Gary:  What ministry (laughing)…

Sid:  He didn’t tell you what?

Gary:  He didn’t tell, and this is the principle now I didn’t know this at the time I know it now in hindsight. You can forget about asking Him about step 2 until you’ve already obeyed what He told you in step 1 (laughing). I started begging the Lord I started saying “Well Lord how am I going to feed my family? We have rent, we have car payments…”

Sid:  Did you have children?

Gary:  At the time… I do have 3 daughters but at the time none of them were living here.

Sid:  Okay.

Gary:  They were grown.

Sid:  Hmm hm.

Gary: But still we had all the normal expenses like everybody else has the electric company they like to be paid every month…

Sid:  Did you have much in savings?

Gary:  Oh no (laughing) hardly any at all and we were in debt and most of it was junky debt. I mean credit card bills and just typical Americans you know.  I had not… He did not say a word about how any of that was to be paid. He didn’t tell me even what He was going to have me be doing. He just said “You’ll be working full-time for Me” that’s all that I knew. I kept begging and asking and talking with Him every day “Well Lord how will we eat? How will I pay my rent? How will we make the car payment? How will we keep the utilities on?” The silence Sid was deafening (laughing). It was deafening. He never said anything to me about that.

Sid:  Alright so He didn’t answer, you didn’t answer, you didn’t quit your job, did you feel bad about not answering that?

Gary:  I felt really bad, I felt really bad. I did answer Him I didn’t answer Him in words I answered Him in my action. I said “No!”

Sid:  But 10 months later, in fact I know the exact date December 4, 1994 you were driving in the state of Arkansas on a cold foggy night and what happened?

Gary:  Well let me preface to what happened with this, because many people think when I tell you about what I am to say many people think the Lord did this to me and He most certainly did not. Safety for any sheep is to stay very close to their shepherd and if He’s leading down a certain path if the sheep wants to stay safe he needs to be staying close to where He’s leading.

Sid:  You know some people say to me when they hear of a Jewish person called to Israel they say “How can this be with all the unrest that’s going on there?” What they don’t understand is if that person is called to Israel and they go to Israel they’ll be safer in Israel than they’ll be in the United States.

Gary:  Oh absolutely I believe that with all of my heart. As you long as you stay close to Him that is the place of ultimate safety, that is the place of protection.

Sid:  Gary I hate to do this to our Mishpochah but I want you to pick up on what happened on that date.

Sid: I’ve got on the telephone a man if you are interested in research about the Jewish roots of the New Testament, about the Jewish conspiracy, and yes I say conspiracy, that has Jewish people worldwide to not even consider that Jesus is the Messiah. I have in my hand the “End of History Messiah Conspiracy” by Philip Moore. Philip is a researcher for Hal Lindsey, he spent almost 8 years in Israel, he spends 12 years gathering the data for this book. As a matter fact Philip Moore how in the world as a Gentile did you get such fabulous quotes from the Talmud in this book?

Philip:  Well I actually bought my own copy. I got tired of going Emory Theology Library and I just bought my own copy and started reading it.

Sid: As a matter of fact on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about the conspiracy, and let’s call it for what it is, the conspiracy about the Messiah that the rabbis did. You told us there’s a little city in Israel by the name of Yavne. There was a meeting of the rabbis and they had to do something about all these Jewish people that were turning to Jesus. So they figured out a way by the traditional prayers in the synagogue to put a line that says “You’re a heretic if you believe in Jesus.” Anyone that was silent when they would make that statement they knew they were a believer and they would put them out of the synagogue. But did the persecution get even worse than that?

Philip:  Yes there was a guy names Aquila, I’ve got him mentioned in chapter 8 in very good documentation who created an actual… who retranslated the Jewish Bible the Greek translation that was held sacred by the rabbis he retranslated his own version and changed the word Messiah, changed the word virgin. So there were retranslations, there were…

Sid: Philip you can’t answer this but I’m going to ask you the question anyway. How does a man that has a rabbi someone that… today I understand it’s the blind leading the blind. I’m not blaming the rabbis today they don’t know better, but the ones that changed the Holy Scripture I mean our people were so meticulous to make sure every jot and tittle was the same, how could a rabbi do this?

Philip:  Well if he thinks he’s saving his people from assimilation and destruction…

Sid: But this is the word of God! How do you tamper with the word of God?

Philip:  Well very carefully. I would not dare to (laughing) and I don’t think you would either, but there have been people that have decided the unjustifiable means let’s retranslate these prophecies and let’s make alternative translations and alternative interpretations. I document many… on about 50 different pages I’ll show the original Hebrew at the top of the page, then I’ll show the English translation of the prophecy, then I’ll show the ancient rabbinical commentary what the rabbis believe and that this prophecy is about the Messiah. Many times they mention the word Messiah in their own commentary whether it be about…

Sid: But you say this has all been zipped out, deleted, to rewrite history by the rabbis, but you have in possession the ancient rabbinical statements before there was prejudice about Jesus…

Philip: That’s right.

Sid: …and the ancient ones clearly say that these prophecies talk about Messiah. Then I love what you do, is you then put the modern approaches and it doesn’t bare any resemblance to what ancient rabbis thought before there was prejudice.

Philip:  Yep there are a lot of books out there, the one’s called “The Real Messiah,” one’s called “You Take Jesus I’ll Take God.” You know I’ve seen rabbis just ready to hand it to me and I’ll say “Wait I’ve quoted that and I’ve read it in where he says that this is not the Messiah your Targuman Talmud your ancient commentaries did say it was.” We have as Samuel Levine said “Created a new status quo” we just returned to the old one, the one held by the ancient rabbis…

Sid: So who’s closer Orthodox Jewish rabbis today or Christians to the ancient rabbis?

Philip:  Definitely evangelical Christians and Messianic Jews and we’ve got the commentaries to prove it.

Sid: This book that I have… you’ve got the goods (laughing) you really do Phil. To help the Mishpochah that don’t have the book in their hand yet. Let me tell you Mishpochah it took him 12 years of research and obviously God’s hand has been upon him. It’s 1200 pages fascinating reading, why don’t you take one of the Messianic prophecies and explain it to the Mishpochah from the Old Testament translation, to the ancient rabbinical commentary, to the New Testament revelation, to the modern rabbinic refutation or rewriting… what do they call them revisionists?

Philip:  Hmm hm.

Sid: You know there are a lot of revisionists when it comes to the Christian history of the United States. I’m concerned about the revisionists within rabbinic Judaism. Show me one of them.

Philip:  Well on page 198 I’ve got…

Sid: Wait a second I’ve got to… I’ve got to find it there fellow. 198 I’m not a researcher like you, okay I got it.

Philip:  Okay I have the Hebrew at the top and of course the translation into today’s English it says “But the Lord was pleased to crush Him.”

Sid: This is from Isaiah 53 verse 10. Go ahead.

Philip:  Yeah verse 10 right “But the Lord was pleased to crush Him. Putting Him to grieve if He would render Himself as a guilt offering He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days and the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hands.” Now the commentary to that says to that in the Targum, the Targum to Isaiah.

Sid: What is Targum mean?

Philip:  It means actually translation, it’s in a sense a Jewish commentary. They would in Aramaic in the ancient synagogue they would actually give a partial interpretation into the text and they would actually interpret the text and they were called the Targums. There’s a Targum South, and Targum Onkelos different ones, but this one which my source for this is by Reverend B. Pick PhD and it’s in the Hebraic and Jewish source it’s called “Old Testament Passages Messianic Applied by the Ancient Synagogue” it was done back in 1886. On page 267 of volume 1 of that they reproduce the Targum to it, it says the Targum to Isaiah 53:10. The targum reads “My servant the Messiah in whom I am well pleased.” Now of course Matthew in chapter 3 and 1^st Peter identify that with Jesus that He was the Messiah that would suffer for us and it would all be well and many quotes for Isaiah 53.

Sid: But what do the modern rabbis have to say?

Philip:  In the very next column on the same page I have a modern rabbinic comment refutation under that title. I quote a fella by the name of Gerald Sigal who wrote quite a large book I believe there were 400 pages published like a Targum it says… it’s called “The Jew and the Christian Missionary.” In this he wrote quote in this verse, and I’ve got it in brackets Isaiah 53:10. He’s talking about the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 but certainly this portion also. Then I started to quote him “Again the prophet reiterates in bold terms”, I’m not very good at reading maybe you should read that.

Sid: “A basic Biblical concept in suffering there is purification. Thus there are times God presents crushing personal challenges to His most loyal followers in order to strengthen their spirit. No poor person is born pious or righteous. The words of Isaiah “If He would offer himself as a guilt offering” do not mean that the servant offers himself vicariously as a guilt offering for others, thus Isaiah 53:10 cannot and should not be applied to Jesus.” So who is this Gerald Sigal that goes against the ancient Targum written by the rabbis that were closer to the shekinah glory of God, which most rabbis say “We follow the Talmud” because they were closer to the glory so why can’t we take that with the Targum? I mean you can’t have it both ways rabbi, you agree Philip?

Philip:  I agree.

Sid: Anyway you have… I mean I’ll tell you something I am so excited to have your book because anytime any Jewish person says to me “Oh that passage is not referring to the Messiah” talking about a prophecy about the Messiah I can show them the ancient rabbis before there was prejudice involved absolutely knew it was talking about the Messiah. Something else, I mean this is kind of left field but I just want to skip right now Philip. You have some research that you’ve gathered on Christopher Columbus, briefly tell me about that.

Philip:  Well there’s a lot of evidence that he was Jewish, I mean I have conclusive evidence one of his letters has the beit hey up in the left corner.

Sid: Explain the beit hey.

Philip:  Those are 2 Hebrew letters B H meaning b’ezrot haShem, b’ezrot is to help with the help, haShem the name literally with the help of God.  It was an ancient Sephardic Jewish greeting that only a Jew would use on a letter I believe.

Sid: Did you think Columbus could not only be Jewish but a Messianic Jew, a Jewish believer in Jesus?

Philip:  Well he had this special book he kept with him at all times that explained Jesus from a Jewish viewpoint and proved it was also given to a rabbi of that era proved that He was the Messiah according…

Sid: That Jesus was the Messiah?

Philip:  Right from a Jewish standpoint it would prove it. So why would he be so interested in such a publication if he wasn’t… and his mother’s name was Shoshana, which is a Jewish name. Barbenell was Jewish he was the one more or less who secured his voyages with the king. He would not put this beit hey on the letters he would send to the king and queen because they were killing a lot of Jewish people at that time and he didn’t want them to know he was Jewish. I’m sure he didn’t want the Catholic Church or at least the establishment to realize that he believed Jesus in a fundamental way that he expresses some of his writings I’ve quoted and reproduced. I’ve got a quote from the radio church where John Hagee has also pointed out he believes that Christopher Columbus was Jewish…

Sid: I wonder if one of the reasons this has been one of the most blessed countries the world has ever known in all of history is because it has not only been found by a Jewish person but it’s also been a haven for Jews.

Philip:  I believe you’re absolutely right because I believe God would such an explorer. I have some quotes from some obscure writings that he was very interested in prophecies and that’s why he set out to find the New World.

Sid: Philip Moore our time is up.

Sid: I have on the telephone a friend of mine who’s a researcher actually for Hal Lindsey and many others but he has a book that’s going to amaze almost any Christian and non-Christian on the face of this earth when they read this. I can’t believe the information that is available in this and the title of the book is “The End of History Messiah Conspiracy.”  Now Philip you spent almost 8 years in Israel living there I know that every time I would go on a tour I would see you there gathering this information why did you write this book Philip Moore?

Philip: Well I love the Jewish people and I always wanted them to learn the truth that I have found in their Bible. And of course the New Testament also and the without the Jewish people we wouldn’t have a Messiah we wouldn’t have Messiah Yeshua.

Sid: What I’m trying to find out Philip is something very supernatural about this book. I mean you know a lot of people love the Jewish people but don’t have the ability of the access. Did you find that this information was just coming to you I’m just curious I haven’t asked you this before was it supernaturally coming to you it’s a big book I mean it’s 1200 pages?

Philip: Yeah it took 12 years and it did I felt the Lord brought stuff to me that I felt it’s one of the things that He actually gave us all of us talents and I was able to find things that people have told me that the average person can’t find. I mean it just came to me I’d be in a library and I’d be looking at a book and it would be just pop out of a page. And I really felt the Lord was giving it to me I don’t want to take credit for myself.

Sid:  I understand for instance I’ll just throw one little fact out that was kind of overwhelming to me. Everyone has heard of one of the most famous scientists of all history Isaac Newton but most people have not heard that number one that he’s a strong Christian or was a strong Christian. And number two he predicted things based on his study and the mind that God gave him of what would happen in the future. For instance according to your book he predicted in the 20^th century the Jewish people would return to Jerusalem. And when did he live by the way?

Philip: He was born in 1642 on December 25^th and lived until 1727 until his 70’s.

Sid: So by studying the scriptures one of the greatest scientist in all of history was able to predict and he stated that “In the 20^th century the Jewish people would return to Jerusalem.” But the thing that intrigues me is he also prophesied when the Messiah would come what did he say?

Philip: He believed the 21^st century.

Sid: So that means sometime after the year 2000 I mean he was right on the Jewish people returning to Jerusalem so I believe he’s right on his second prediction what do you think?

Philip:  I believe so too I mean with all of the weaponry that we have at our disposal and the technology and the computer chips and the One World Monitory System that’s being planned I don’t think we can go another 100 years maybe not even 50.

Sid: Well talking about something providential someone gave me a newspaper from Atlanta, it’s dated June 29^th the headline is “Can Jews be Christians?” And when I started reading your book this quote just shouted at me. This says the traditional Jewish position on the Messiah and then let me read this quote from the newspaper:

Jews who believe that the Messiah will come as a male descendant of King David will rule as King of Israel during a time of World Wide peace that all Jewish people will be gathered to Israel and that the temple of Jerusalem twice destroyed will be rebuilt he said.

Now this is the traditional Jewish belief and here’s the thing that staggered me that it says that “There will be a time of peace, Jews will be regathered to Israel and the temple will be rebuilt and the Messiah will be in the temple.” But I don’t see anything about an anti-Christ here I don’t see any warning about an anti-Christ here.  Your book explains why tell our Mishpochah.

Philip: Yeah in chapter 23 it’s called “Armilus Equals Anti-Christ” it’s about a 60 page chapter.  A subject on a Rabbi that lived over 900 years ago a great famous well known Jewish Sage in Orthodox Jewish circles wrote of this Armilus that would come and wreak havoc on Jerusalem on the end of days. And at this teaching you can look up Armilus in the different Jewish encyclopedias and he’s mentioned there and he’s kind of referred to as part of Jewish folklore, but it’s identical to what’s written in New Testament 2^nd Thessalonians.

Sid: But I’m a Jew why didn’t I ever hear of that, why didn’t this Jewish man in the Atlantic Journal not hear of it? Why is there something intentional that we don’t hear about Anti-Christ the Jews.

Philip: Well I believe and I think I set forth a very firm case for it in this book that the conspiracy to cover up the Messianic prophesies by many of the Rabbis that have come together to recreate Judism at Yavne in the 1^st century between the years of 80 – 110 in Israel and when they were preparing Jewry to survive in the diasporas they were afraid to intermingle with Gentiles that had these same beliefs that believed in the Messiah that believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Well a lot of the ancient commentaries that say that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem that say that He would suffer as Isaiah 53 points out. These commentaries were pushed aside and these apostasies were reinterpreted. So when you ask the Rabbi today “Well what about Isaiah 53?  He’ll say well that’s about the Jewish people or that’s about the sufferings of Israel.” But yet when you show him a Targum or a Talmud which are ancient Jewish commentaries and say “Look it said here about the Messiah” he often doesn’t know what to say because his idea his perception is “I don’t want the Jewish people to have questions about the Messiah being Jesus because that could cause assimilation and we quote the rabbi need to pass these prophesies off as not really being Messianic prophesies but being prophesies about the Jewish people and this way will hopefully hold our people together.”

Sid: But I don’t understand I understand why the rabbis to protect their own economic interest I mean let’s call it for what it is don’t talk about the prophecies and reinterpret them away from what the ancient rabbis interpret them they’re sort of rewriting history so to speak. But I don’t understand why the Rabbis don’t talk about their own writings about the anti-Christ what’s the reason?

Philip: Well quite frankly I think a lot of them don’t even realize that there was the predictions that there was an Armilius and an anti-Christ because it takes a lot of digging into ancient documents.

Sid: Is it because if you talk about anti-Christ…

Philip: People want to know who Christ is.

Sid: Yeah that’s probably the reason.

Philip: And also there’s a book called “The Real Messiah” put out by Orthodox National Conference of Synagogues used I believe in New York for the real Messiah it was written in 1976. And it says almost identically to what you told me that article said. That there would be a rebuilding of the temple and that there would be a time of peace and that there would be born of natural parents that’s on the opening page of chapter 23 at the caption. And I point out there that if we don’t return to these ancient believes and realize that that the anti-Messiah is coming. That we’re going to be fooled a lot of non-Jews also.

Sid: Well I don’t see how the Jewish people could possible accept someone ruling the world based in Jerusalem unless they thought he was the Messiah and we know that the anti-Messiah is coming before the return of the Messiah. And there’s no talk I mean it’s talk about a set up the rabbis have set our people up actually for a slaughter.

Philip: It looks that way and I’m just praying that people will look at these prophesies and look at these predictions and these commentaries and realize that even show the Rabbis even give them copies of this book or similar books that I believe a lot of them. Some of them I may have really want may really realize that he may be the Messiah and just want to hide to keep Jewish culture together. But there are others that if they saw this material I’m convinced they’d say “Somebody along the way has not told me the full truth. I’m going to reconsider and read my prophecies, and read my commentaries and just realize that maybe that Jesus could be the Messiah.

Sid:  Now you said something a little earlier, you talked about a place called Yavne where is that?

Philip:  It’s coastal town in Israel.

Sid:  Okay and you said a rabbinical conspiracy occurred there, explain.

Philip:  Well there was a rabbi named Gamaleo and Yochanan ben Zakai and they gathered there between the years 80 – 110 and they altered one of the most sacred documents of Judaism in a very dishonest way, but with good intentions as far as they perceived.

Sid:  What document did they alter?

Philip:  It’s called the Amidah Prayers 18 benedictions it’s said in the synagogue every Sabbath…

Sid:  And why did they alter it?

Philip:  Well in chapter 12 there’s an alteration that occurs in the 12^th benediction and it’s called the birkat haminim, which means blessings for the Minim. Minim means groups or sects of Jewish believers but it wasn’t just groups of believers, in reality they discovered in 1925 underneath the old synagogue in Egypt in the Genizah where they stored old scrolls a copy who had Nazarenes writing and found the word Minim, it’s called the Schecter Fragment. In there they said “The Minim and Nazareth have no hope may they parish in a moment.” The reason they did that is because once people… there is a quote in Jerome 4^th century that he says “The Minim are in all the synagogues of the east.” It says this prayer actually is one of the 18 prayers when Jewish believer would be in the synagogue and all the synagogue were saying the first 11 prayers he would become silent on the 12^th because he would be cursing himself by saying the “May the Minim the Nazarene have no hope may they perish in a moment.” When he was silent on that one and continued to go on through 13-18 the rabbis would take notice. They would notice who were silent they would probably not invite him not to come back to the synagogue. In this way they were able to detect them and separate them from the new mainstream of Orthodox Judaism they were creating hoping that there wouldn’t be a possible assimilation because so many non-Jews were believing in Yeshua. If the non-Jews were believing and they didn’t follow Jewish holidays, and some Jews started to believe maybe they will. They wouldn’t start to celebrate holidays and Jewish culture and in the end the whole race of the Jewish people could melt down.

Sid:  Philip Moore our time is up.