It's Supernatural

Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Dr. Michael Brown President of Fire School Ministry in Pensacola, Florida and New York City. The Pensacola branch will shortly move in the fall to Charlotte, North Carolina. I’m interviewing him this week on his latest book “Revolution in the Church.” And on yesterday’s broadcast you were talking about a school and I had to interrupt you would you pick up there and explain.

Michael: Well we were talking about the authoritarian control and the whole view of competition instead of looking to just expanding the kingdom. And there’s one school and I’m sure they do a lot of good there and there’s a lot of teaching and preaching and training but if you graduate from this particular Bible school you have sign an agreement that you will not plant a church within 100 miles of that school because it’s in conjunction of another church and they don’t want any competition.

Sid: Well wait that’s standard in business to have a non-compete clause, that’s very standard. What’s the matter with you Mike?

Michael: This world it’s not the Kingdom of God we’re fathering another generation to go out and continue the work of God, we have no competition, we have only colleagues in the Kingdom.

Sid: Yes but they may steal some of MY Sheep!

Michael: That’s the treacherous thing and listen we’ve have been in involved in churches and leadership for years I don’t go into any city…

Sid: I thought we were God’s sheep by the way.

Michael: Yeah.

Sid: (Laughing)

Michael: It’s the flock that was purchased with the blood of Jesus it’s His we are under shepherds in His flock. And I don’t go anywhere normally to minister but I get invitations from leaders in that particular city, pastors, and leaders. I work with them around the world I honor them but I know that I know that I know that there’s so much junk and cardinality and competition and worldly political ways of thinking that infiltrate the church that that’s so dangerous, that’s so detrimental. And you see we’re in a state were in today Sid because there was a counter culture revolution in the 1960’s with the sexual revolution and rock music and the rebellion and drugs and some good things like civil rights for most part the nation was trained in a detrimental way. And the church basically slept its way from the counterculture revolution. I document this in kind of shocking terms in the second chapter of “Revolution in the Church.” And I believe we’re in revolutionary times again I believe that society is bubbling with change and boiling with upheaval that can go either way. And either there’s going to be a heaven sent revolution, or there’s going to be a hell bent revolution. But we cannot afford to sleep our way through another revolution we’ve got to have radical dramatic sweeping change in the church going back to the word of God if we’re going to see any type of revolution and radical dramatic and sweeping change in society.

Sid: Well but you point out in your book that historically the old move of God always persecutes the new move of God. Why is that we all want God what causes us people that are pioneers in the last move of God persecute those that are involved in the next move?

Michael: Here’s what happens, we basically we in the word, we’re praying, we’re seeking God and we see something’s wrong we see something needs to change but we begin cry out it happens in every generations it happens with every group. Generally in the early stages there’s movement we’re moving forward we are making change. Then in a certain point the main group will tend to be threatened by it threatening my kingdom I’ve become established. Once we become established by our very nature we don’t like movement any more. You know it’s one thing when you live in a little tent and every 6 months you have to pull up that tent and move, it’s another thing when you build your headquarters for 50 million dollars you’re not exactly interested in moving. It’s one thing when you’re in the infancy stage is to be forming beliefs and doctrines it’s another thing when you’ve got it all canonized and in writing and this is the official statement change is a little harder. And so once a personal kingdom or a denominational kingdom or a group kingdom becomes established, once the movement is no longer moving but becomes established it’s threatened by movement. So what will happen is that people within an organization be it in the Methodist, or people in the Baptist, or people in the Pentecostals, or whatever it is or one particular denomination within that they say “We’ve got to get back to the word we’ve gotten lazy, we’ve gotten compromised, we’ve gotten stuck in tradition, we’ve gotten cold, we’ve become political, we’ve lost our cutting edge the powers not with us. And people begin to agree and they begin to seek God and that is tolerated as long as it does not threaten the system itself but once the very system, once the hierarchical structure of it is challenged by the word it now becomes a threat and rather than being allowed to bring change within the thing those people generally get put out. Whether it was the Wesley’s getting put out of the William Booth getting put out or the early Pentecostals getting put out those people get put out and once they’re put out they say “Wow there’s a lot I didn’t really agree with, there’s a lot I see differently.” They kind of go through this new discovery period (chuckling) but after awhile they tend to make the same mistake they have a Kingdom, they have an organization, they have a financial base that they have to preserve, they have leadership that’s been around for years that is its own position etcetera etcetera. If we’re not careful with all of our claims about being the new wineskin we can just become the old wineskin. And so somehow we have to cultivate a spirit of humility within us honors the rest of what God’s doing in the Body. I do not set myself up as the judge and say “You’re the established church, you’re the institutional church, you’re the old wine skin.” My goal is I’m going to pursue Jesus and see to be faithful in what He’s given us to do in the great commission as long as there is a dying world out there, as long as the lost sheep of the House of Israel are not saved those there a billions Muslims that don’t know the Lord, as long as people die in sickness and disease without the power of God let’s throw ourselves in and make a difference. The moment we think that we have become it, the moment that we make the distinction between us and them we are now Pharisees just the same as the New Testament Pharisees were and that’s the danger. It can happen to any of us and as his history goes on and on its repeated itself over and over and over. And Paul writes about it in Galatians 4 “That which is born of the flesh will persecute that which is born of the spirit.” And we must avoid becoming established to the point that we no longer embrace movement in God and movement in the Spirit.

Sid: So what does someone do that is caught up in for lack of better words the last movement of God’s Spirit which in my book is dead religion a form that’s all just a form. We don’t see what the new is yet yet we do see some of the things that we want in the new and we don’t want to be rebels in the church so what do you do?

Michael: First thing is deal with your own heart, make sure that you haven’t been burned to the point of getting skeptical or accosted. Make sure that your own heart is humble before the Lord, make sure that you don’t turn to gossip or divisive towards that which you’re been part of or to leadership that you’ve worked with. And if you cannot with your whole heart throw yourself in with the people that you’ve been part of honor them, bless them, don’t fight them, to opposed them, don’t malign them but ask God to connect you with a group of other believers and other leaders who have the same heart to make a difference for Jesus. And if you feel more secure staying in one place until you know the next place to go that’s fine, but recognize you are not just by yourself you’re a part of a large worldwide army of hungry and thirsty people that are saying “There must be something more.” And there are leaders listening to me now it may cost you everything.

Sid: Pension, income, money, money, money isn’t that the bottom line with a lot of people Mike?

Michael: It can be a trap and it’s not always just carnal because we are supporting missionaries and we’re feeding the poor and we have the church staff and we need the income of the people to keep these good works going but either it’s God or it’s not. And there are leaders listening to me and you know that you just need to do what God is telling you to do. There may be approach there maybe misunderstanding which is why you walk in humility and you bless and not curse. I’m telling you something is happening and is radical revolutionary and biblical. And we can be part of the greatest move that any of us ever dreamed of I believe God’s heart is bursting to do it in the earth today and He’s waiting for us to say “Here I am Lord count me in.”

Sid: And how does humility play with someone that wants to be a pioneer?

Michael: Well you see God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble and we have to recognize that Lord I’m not your answer to the entire world I am not the elite spiritual remnant of the last days Joel, Gideon army no no here I am Lord just a servant but I want to be faithful and this is what I see in You word and this is what I’m hearing together with the other leaders and this is what I have to do. If you’ll just do it and run your race, if you don’t…you don’t have to judge everybody else maybe they’re doing what they’re called to do maybe they’re not but I’m called to do. That’s why humility is an essential quality for pioneer to the extent I’ve got self will, rebellion stuff in it to the extent I just want to pull away and do my own thing I get out of doge thing to the extent I say “Father here I am however this looks to other people, whatever the cost, whatever the consequences in my own life I’m going to simply run the race You’ve given me to run.” And you do it in a way not as if you’re discovering the whole secret of the universe but just you’re obeying Jesus and there’s no limit of how God can use you. And you may end up being a pioneer that history books write about or no one may know your name but either way you’ve been obedience you’ve been a world changer, you’ve been a revolutionary, you’ve been a disciple.

Sid: Very quick tell me about 1 pioneer, less than half a minute.

Michael: Well John Wesley lived 1703 to 1791. The French revolution swept through France and brought all kinds of destruction, violence, anarchy and it didn’t touch England because of Wesleyan Methodist Revolution. As the fruit of his ministry there ended up being others raised up like Wilberforce that abolished slavery and not just in England but that led to the abolition of slave trade in America. People say “You cannot understand 20^th century England or America without understanding Wesley of the 1700’s.”