It's Supernatural

Sid: My guest Donner Roberson is the sister of Pastor Dave Roberson whose book we’re featuring this week, it’s called “The Walk of the Spirit, and the Walk of Power.”  And this is a book that will teach you what happens when you pray in unknown tongues. And some of you say “I know what happens.”  No you don’t have a clue because if you did you’d be devoting hours praying in unknown tongues, it’s perfect prayers opening up the vision that God has given to you.  Well Dave not only wrote the book he lived the book and I can tell you he is a man that knows how to walk in the Spirit. Now Donner with everything that you went through I mean you were molested from a young age, her mother literally sold her to someone for $200 and some would consider you the youngest prostitute in America.  You got into witchcraft, you got into violence, you got into drugs, but with all these people family member in particular that did horrible things to you I mean they’re literally unmentionable we can’t even talk about it on the air what you went through how did you forgive these people?

Donner: Well, to be real honest Sid it wasn’t easy.  When I very first was born again you know I read that passage where “The Father can’t forgive you and my sheep forgive them.” And I literally cried for three days because I said “Lord you just don’t know what they did to me.”  Well, our course He knew, and I said “You’ll have to help me.”  and it was still a process I mean I spend a lot of time in prayer, I spend a lot of time in fasting, I spend a lot of time in the word and the one that was…two incidents where the hardest for me to get over was the one where my Mom had laid in the same bed with me and allowed a man to molest me and just kept telling me to be quiet.  And I was you know it was right before I was sold and when I became a Mom myself I thought, “My God how could you do that, you know have your little girl there crying for you to help her.”  It was my oldest sister that couldn’t take it anymore she six years older and she broke a chair over his head and made him leave and that was so much responsibility for my sister she was only ten.

Sid: But in my notes I’m looking at even what your grandfather did, how did you forgive your grandfather?

Donner: Well, that was the other hard one because I was so thrilled when he came and got us and you know at Christmas he made toys and stuff and then he molested me and I felt so ashamed and like it was my fault.  Because when my mom caught him she whipped me she spanked me like it was my fault and years later when I was going through some fasting and praying I had a dream about him. And in this dream I went up to him and I said “Grandpa I said “How could you do this I said “You were the apple of my eye, why would you do this?”  And he looked at me with such tormented eyes and he said “You don’t know what it’s like when those devils are on you. “ And I said “Well, I just want you to know that I forgive you and I loved you and I kissed him on the forehead in the dream and I woke up.  I never had a problem with him as far as forgiveness goes since, or anything else.

Sid: You really understand God’s mercy, you really understand God’s love, would you talk a little bit about His mercy and His love.

Donner: When I got into the word and I saw how He extended Himself to Mary Magdalene and the devil possessed and the unclean; the heathen and the tax collectors and He just loved them so much. And He set them free even when religious devils tried to destroy and tell him not to have anything do with Him He embraced anyway.  And I told the Lord I said “I don’t ever want to hurt anyone that you died for.” And He died for everybody; He died for everybody and I told people and I said “If He could use me,” I said because I had to repent  for how I was toward people.  I told Him that if He could forgive me He could forgive anyone and I said “He’s so wants us to be free, He so wants us to understand that if we were the only person here he had died just for us.  That’s how much love He has and I told people I said “And the enemy comes so fast to condemn you; to steal kill and destroy everything God’s trying to do in you.  And I said that you become through your emotions your own worst enemy with self condemnation. That’s why I continually urge people to pray in the Holy Spirit building up their most holy faith.  Not only does it do that but it starts teaching you about Jesus and I found that it to be so true. You know in 1^st John when he said “How can you love a God that you haven’t seen if you can’t love a brother whom you’ve seen.”  If we can’t love like Him that’s all His commandment “Love one another like I’ve loved you.”  He laid down His life for us, I don’t know how much more you know people I told them I said “How much more does it take, what else can He do He’s already done it all.”  And He’s extending that love and that grace to everyone of us, He knows we make mistakes, Peter denied Him how many times?  Three times or twice, I mean everyone ran and deserted Him and He still loved them and He still used them.  And I told them, “He hasn’t forgot you, He’s never forgotten you and He’s trying so hard He’s moving heaven and earth to meet your needs but He won’t override your free will; but I’m tell you He’s strategically places people with times or dreams in your life.”  I know He doesn’t give up on us because if He did I wouldn’t be here.

Sid: You know the devil really tries to operate through lies in our mind, I’m sure he tries with you.  What do you do when you catch yourself believing these lies?

Donner:  Well first of all I repent because I know better, (laughing).  And when he tries to bombard me with things I do what the scriptures say he said “Fill yourself full of songs and hymns and spiritual songs; think on the good things.”  And I do and I tell the devil “Your greater than my Lord or will you ever be.”  I said “I read the scriptures right He beheld you satan as you fell from heaven; He didn’t fall you did and I said “My Lord’s the truth and I’m choosing the truth over you.”  And then I pray in the Holy Spirit and I worship until it breaks.

Sid: One of the things that I’m excited about and we’ll talk a little bit today and a little bit tomorrow is God has given you a very powerful deliverance ministry.  Many times when you pray for people do you actually have discernment, do you see the demons?

Donner:  At times, I’ve actually had them manifest and take over and talk to me in a different like you see woman and they’ll talk to you in a man’s voice.  And I’ve had them try to attack me physically; they’ve never been able to touch me, it’s amazing what God does I feel so protected.

Sid: Now you know the power of the devil because you were in witchcraft. You know the power of God because you have surrendered totally to Him.  Is there anything the devil can do when you know who you are in Jesus?

Donner:  He can only do what you let him.

Sid: So is it sort of like the scripture that says “How can two walk together unless they be agreed.”  So you have to agree with the devil for him to have any hold at all on you.

Donner: Yes and his tactic is your mind and then he’ll try to attack people so hard through fear, fear tactics.  How many people do you know even as Christians Sid that are terrified the minute that someone tells them they have cancer?

Sid: And that’s actually what the devil wants you to do with that lying symptom is to just pair up with.  Fear is a powerful force that the devil operates under.

Donner:  Absolutely.

Sid: Donner I have in my hand your brother’s book “The Walk of the Spirit, the Walk of Power.” and I know you give this to as many people as you can.  Why do you want people to read his book?

Donner:  Because I believe it is one of the best foundational books to where you become like that rock where no matter how hard the storm beats against it you’ll still stand and it teaches you how the enemy comes and tries to destroy your emotions. It teaches you how you purge when you pray in the Holy Ghost; we want to start out sometimes changing everybody on this planet and his goal is to change us first.

Sid: You know I read that in his book; I had never heard anyone teach that before.  What you’re doing is your taking care of yourself first through when you’re praying in tongues so then once you’re cleansed then you can help others.

Donner: Absolutely, see because to me what it does for you it’s like in Psalm 51 you know where it says “Create in me a clean heart, a pure heart before You Lord.”  Because he said “You really can’t teach transgressors their ways until your clear.” You know the enemy if you don’t let him, if you don’t let the Holy Spirit purge you and teach you and like I had to learn to let go of all that bitterness and hatred.  And I would have much rather changed everybody else.  Actually I was worse than that when I was born again it would have been “Rain fire on their head Lord,” I would have been happy.  But he did such a work in my now I can’t bare the thought of hurting someone.

Sid: Mishpochah He wants to do that some work in you, He wants to do that some work in you that He did in Donner; He has such a wonderful plan for your life and I believe that it’s not accident that you’re listening to this broadcast.

Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Mary Jo Pennington; her family calls her Ma Jo so I’ll call her Ma Jo.  She’s the grandmother of little Victoria who at age 4½ had encounter with, and that’s the title of the book “Six Big, Big, Big Angels.” I’ll tell you if these angels hadn’t rescued her she probably would have died.  We talked about it earlier this week, she would have died; I mean falling 9 feet down on concrete and just having a tiny little scratch.  But these angels rescued her, took her to Heaven; she had encounter with God.  And since that time she’s been having many encounters. One of the places that she visited in Heaven she talks about many of them in her book, that brings such comfort to people, but especially to those that have been involved in the sin of abortion.  Tell me Ma Jo a bit about the Baby Place, or even the Baby Room that you talk about in the book that you wrote which is basically you transcribed tapes of her visitations and experiences.

Mary Jo:  Yes, well she told us graphically about the little pretty room the very first day that she fell, she said that these two little babies were in this beautiful room that she said “This tiny baby I could hold in my hands.”  At 4 ½ years old her hands were very small. Then she described the room as having flowers growing like the walls have flowers growing on them, and that there were beautiful rainbows all over the place just glistening in front like rainbows of light in front of all of the flowers on the walls.  They had every kind of animal and every kind animal in every color.  These animals were every color and the babies played with them; each baby that she talked to personally, there were four or five of them. She actually, when she was talking to them could talk, she could see how they died and where they were from; she knew that the first baby was from Brownsville and she knew that the second baby was from Tampa.  She just described her mother as being very young and her father as being very big and strong.  And then she said “There was another baby there that told her a very very sad story and she looked kind of sick when she told me this.”  And I said “Well honey you don’t have to tell me if you don’t want to.”  She said “I will tell you, her was put in the garbage thing and then her was took on the garbage ride and then the angels came with their big wings and took her away” And then she said “When her was in the garbage I could smell it, and I wanted to get a water hose and wash the bugs and slim off of her and I could smell it and then the angels came and took her away.”

Sid: By the way Mishpochah you have to understand that this 4 ½ year old Victoria doesn’t even comprehend the word abortion or even realize what had occurred.  She’s just describing what she saw, but go ahead.

Mary Jo:  Alright, so I asked her …she said “I wanted to get a hose.”  I said “Okay you wanted to get a hose and wash the baby off, was this in Heaven or was this on the earth?”  She said “It was on the earth, but in a different kind of world.”  I don’t understand that, I just think she saw it as she talked to the babies. The babies are actually in a wonderful room.  And when this baby got through telling her about, or she got through talking to her about the garbage and everything of course it made the baby a little sad so they went for a ride and a kangaroo pouch of a wonderful kangaroo that smells good, that sings to them and bounces them all over the place, in fact they bounced out into the park, this wonderful park around this Baby Place, they would bounce up to the sky.  They would bounce up as high as the sky with this wonderful angelic creatures that was like a kangaroo pouch, and she and this baby just held on.  And when they came back she got to talk to this other little baby that she called Little Victoria.  But the angelic creatures are there to help them recover being estranged and taken away from their mother.

Sid: And it’s so wonderful the way you explain the love they have for their parents on earth and what peace that brings to woman that have had abortions.  But there was something you were not bargaining for because one day Victoria told her mother about your child explain.

Mary Jo:  Yes, her mother asked her on one of the tapes that I was transcribing she said “Did God hug anybody because God had come over, Jesus and God were at the Baby Place my relatives were all there that had died and gone to Heaven and God was hugging them.”

Sid: She saw relatives that have died and gone into Heaven?

Mary Jo:   Yes, she said “Granny had her teeth.”  And so Sandy said “Well, Victoria did God hug anybody else?”  And she said, “Oh, yeah God hugged everybody, God hugged Granny and everybody and Ma Jo’s son.”  And she said “Whose son?”  And she said “Ma Jo’s beautiful, beautiful son.”  She said, Sandy said “Oh, you must mean Uncle Harry because my brother had just died that month before.”  And she said “Oh, yeah he hugged Harry and everybody.”  Well the second time I read this transcription it just blasted through me; the first time I read it, it didn’t really sink in, it just like skimmed over my head.  And the second time I read it the Lord had me by this time tendered enough that I could remember something that had been blocked from my memory for many many years.  In 1969 I had caused myself, my own hand to have an abortion and that almost killed me, I was almost dead the next morning, when they found me on the floor in just pools of blood and it was a desperate time in my life.  I had five children, and I had done this out of desperation and almost died from it.  But she saw my baby.

Sid: Ma Jo, when this was reported to you and God dealt in your life and you got free for the first time, what difference does this make to you now?

Mary Jo: Well, I can finally feel like that God truly loves me and that I’m worthy of His love, that Jesus gave His life for me and I’ve been redeemed.  I never could come pray without confessing sin first, I always felt like I had to repent of my past life over and over again even though he had put it under the blood.  But now, I know that He’s forgiven me and I can go from that point forward and truly grow in God without having to go back and always think.  I felt guilty all the time and I didn’t really know why; and now I don’t have that guilt anymore because I know that Jesus forgave me, God forgave me and I’m free to move forward with God.

Sid: And you said this early this week but I want you to repeat this; when your granddaughter Victoria talked with these aborted babies what was their opinion of their parents that were involved in the abortion?

Mary Jo:  They forgave them. I asked her if they held it against…if the babies held it against their Mommies for getting rid of them?  She said, “They didn’t they never get rid of their baby they will always love the baby and the baby will always love the Momma.”

Sid: There is some women that are listening even some men that were involved in consenting in the abortion that I believe that if you pray for they’ll be and they read this book especially they’ll be set free.  Would you pray for them briefly?

Mary Jo: Yes I will.  Father in the name of Jesus Christ Your Son I come before You and I ask that You open the hearts of the people that have been hurt by abortion. Lord open their hearts and pour the sunshine of Your love in, let them forgive themselves.  Their baby has forgiven them and they’re happy and they love them and they pray for them.  And Lord we just pray that You help these people understand that the love that they have coming to them and that they are forgiven; let them forgive themselves oh Lord and just receive peace as I have done.

Sid: In Jesus Name.  You know something else that you had mentioned earlier before we went on the air that God has stationed a big angel by your swimming pool and that’s amazing, but what is even more amazing is so many people come to your house and they report that they can sense it or see it.  Explain.

Mary Jo: Yes, he’s very large and he stays at the ladder of the swimming pool and most people, most of our friends who come by we take them back there.  As soon as they step through our glass sliding door to the deck and look across the swimming pool at the sliding board they can see this angel shaped mist it’s like a mist and he’s close to 15 feet tall but they just stop they get off of the deck and they go “Huh!” because they can see him.  He’s not a clear like you would see a picture of one because you can see through him but you can clearly see an outline of him. 

Sid: I’m sorry we’re out of time.

Sid: In the meantime I have in my studio and I’m so glad she’s in my studio Juennine Fox. She’s from Houston, Texas, and Juennine I have been looking at your background and I am really amazed that’s almost like the 29^th Chapter of the Books of Acts.  Let’s go back to the beginning I’m going to start you out with your family. Your parents are into the New Age back then, they called it the occult.  And your father was driving his car fairly fast about 90 miles an hour.

Juennine: Very fast.

Sid: And tell me what happened.

Juennine: He was driving his car, he was drunk with three men in the car, he was backslidden, knew he needed to give his life to the Lord, had a praying mother who kept saying “Homer you must give your life to Jesus.”  And there was a sign that said, dead end don’t go any further.  They didn’t see it because it was night, they kept speeding and realized that there was a cliff and the car starts to fly over this cliff that there was a stream and a river underneath.  He realizes that the car was starting to fall I mean literally drop and he calls on the name of Jesus.  You know you may not be serving God, but when a mother and father prays those seeds that they plant in our lives his mother planted the word of God in there and at least he knew when in trouble call on the Name of Jesus.

Sid: You know Juennine I believe I can’t prove it but I believe no one comes to the Lord, no one unless someone somewhere prays for them.  And just because you don’t know who prayed for you doesn’t mean that someone did not pray for you.

Juennine: That’s right Sid, that’s right.  Well, my father called on the Name of Jesus and as he’s calling on the Name of Jesus he realizes that his life is the balance and he makes a vow to God.  Have you ever been in such a situation where you’re in trouble and you say okay God I’m going to make a promise?  Well, in those split seconds as he knows that he’s ready to die he says God if you get me out of this one I’ll serve you. And as his car is spinning through the air he says he saw a hand come, a large hand, and he saw Jesus lift that car; there was the wind that came as he saw that hand and that car began to spin through the air to the other-side of the embankment and it crossed over the river.  Now this was impossible.

Sid: Well, what I was going to ask you from your father’s viewpoint is there any rational explanation for this beyond the miraculous?

Juennine: Well, he knows that it has to be God, he was drunk, he knew that there was a supernatural force keeping him alive because once that car got to the other side of the cliff it started to turn over and over and over now and in the natural these 3 – 4 men would be dead Sid because the car was just like a coke can crunched together. But what happened was that these 3 to 4 men came out of the car once it stopped going back and forth, they came out totally not one scratch on them; totally perfect as if nothing had happened. My father fell on the ground and he gave his life to Jesus.  There was not one scratch on these men when they got out of the car even though the car was crashed they came out without a scratch.

Sid: Okay, about how old were you at the time?

Juennine: I was about 12 years old at the time.

Sid: Okay so your raised in a backslidden home and all of a sudden your father comes home did he tell everyone what had happened?

Juennine: He did. He was a civil rights activist; he was always working for the community he was a good community man, but I never really saw my father very often he didn’t live with us. he came home once every blue moon and all of a sudden my father comes home with this light around his face.  It was the love of God it was the beauty of God all over him; there was a difference in his countenance.  I saw him and I knew God was in my house; he said “I’ve given my life to Jesus” he said “I’m going to be the father that you’ve never had,” and he said “This is going to become a household of faith.”  I’ll never forget that.

Sid: When he said that to you forget Jesus, forget God; just a little girl gets her father back; you must have… what kind of emotion did you experience?

Juennine: I was thinking what’s happened to my father, it was very abnormal really for him to come back I couldn’t understand why he was really back. He had a lot to make up for but there was a joy in my heart that maybe I’ll have a normal upbringing just like most of my friends that I would have a normal family again.  There was a joy in that that I was getting my father back.  But about the Jesus part I didn’t know about that because I wasn’t saved yet.

Sid: Well, tell me what occurred in reference to you coming to know the Messiah.

Juennine: What occurred was that I gave my life to the Lord shortly after that probably about a year later my father grew in God; he became a deacon in the church and then he later became almost like an associate pastor.  And I gave my life to Jesus in his Baptist church; he started attending a Baptist church in Detroit, Michigan, and I gave my life to God.

Sid: No, no, no, no. I read about it it’s much more than that, you were one of these people, you were like a preacher’s kid and everyone said “Are you going to get saved.”  And then you were suborn.

Juennine: You know I had a lot going for me, at that time I was on a television show, a radio show that was live called WGPR TV Teen Profile.  I was very well known for my age and I hosted a television show there in Detroit, Michigan and I had a lot going for me and I didn’t think I needed God.

Sid: But one day to get the people off your people off your back.

Juennine: But one day to get the people off my back I decided I was just going to lie because I was tired of people every Sunday Sid saying “When is the pastor’s daughter going to get saved?”  They would come to me and say (singing) “Come to Jesus, come to Jesus come to Jesus right now; come to Jesus come to Jesus right now; He will save you, he will save you he will save you right now, He will save you, He will save you right now.”  And they would hold their hand out and beckon me to come down to the altar and I said “I can’t take it anymore, I can’t take this pressure everyone asking me every Sunday “Have I given my life to the Lord?”  I’m just going to fake an altar call.

Sid: And…

Juennine: I said “I’m coming,” they almost fell out because they couldn’t believe here’s Reverend Foster’s daughter coming down to the altar and I remember walking down those stairs coming down to the front of the sanctuary and the whole congregation screams “Oh hallelujah, hallelujah Reverend Fosters daughters coming down to give her life to Jesus!”  I stand in front of this preacher who loved God with his black robes on and he was so happy.  And he said “Ah do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He died for you?”  But before I got a chance to answer the first question and lie to this preacher something happened Sid, a supernatural being came right in front of me He was love, his countenance, His radiance was beauty and He looked at me in my eyes. I can’t explain to you how God looks at you, but I could literally see Him, I could see God and He was standing in front of me.  And my whole life passed before me and I became aware that I was a sinner then, I needed God.  I remembered every thought that I thought that was bad, I remembered every sin, every sin every lie I had ever told and I said “I’m doomed God’s here oh my goodness He’s standing right in front of me.”  I looked at my life and said “I’m going to die, I am a sinner.” But then the Lord started to – His presence started to become rays and billows of love and He started to communicate to every fiber of my being His love; every cell of my being was being washed by the love of God.  And He was saying “Juennine I love you, I’m not here to kill you I’ve come to save you; I love you.”  And I recognized for that first moment that this is what I’ve been looking for.  All I was looking for was unconditional love, that love that only comes through a relationship with Jesus Christ and I had found it.  And I gave my life to Jesus because I said “Yes,” I screamed “Yes!” with those words but it was a true surrender and it was out of a true heart.

Sid: Now I’m sure the people that heard you, heard you singing recognized that you had more than a normal type of voice, you actually studied opera at the University of Michigan, then you studied under a famous opera singer in New York City.  And you became part of something that many people have heard of the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir. One time you were so hungry for God and the Holy Spirit came into your room tell me about that.

Juennine: I was so hungry for God because I wanted more of Him, I noticed that I was powerless without the empowering of the Holy Spirit.  I wanted to do good works for Jesus and I started trying to pray for people on the streets of New York and just nothing happened and I realized that there’s something wrong with my life, I need to get closer with God.  I need some of God to rub off on me so I decided to go on a fast and I went on a fast to seek the face of the Lord and the Lord will wake me up at 2:00 am to read my Bible for a whole week Sid. I just was so hungry for more of God and that word became like Living Bread, it was like real food.  Jesus said that “His word was food.”  It was so awesome because I actually thought I was being infused with life and with sustenance and His word was changing me and transforming my thoughts.  I was reading the New Testament and the Old Testament about the works that Jesus did and on the last day I saw a cloud, I actually saw with my natural cloud.

Sid: I’ll tell you what hold that thought.  And you may say “Well, I know about that, but you don’t know that it is literally a major, major key to breakthrough.”  You see most people don’t realize it but when you get your thinking straightened out the Holy Spirit has free access and if you will listen and follow through on what she suggests that you do you’re going to have a major transformation in your life.  Juennine you’ve been teaching on this area for many years what feedback do you get from people that either sit under this teaching or listen to the CD.

Juennine: I have not had one person who has come to me say they’ve been disappointed they’ve said to me “My God this has changed my life, I never knew that this tape about transforming my thoughts by what I think and guarding my thoughts has changed my relationship with God.  I’m having breakthrough’s in my situations, my relationships with others is being healed and mended.  My relationship with God is so much more improved and there is such a communion between me and the Holy Spirit this is so awesome it’s been the breakthrough and the key that I’ve needed.”

Sid:  Listen, I’m mentoring you, this is another mentoring key that you really need

Sid: On yesterday’s broadcast I ended with Isaiah 43:19 “For I am about to do something new, see I’ve already begun, do you not see it?”  And the new is the One New Man which I’ve been literally a voice in the wilderness shouting the One New Man.

It kind of reminds me I was involved and I was a brand new Jewish believer and one of the first Messianic Jewish Congregations in modern day history and boy were persecuted for that. And then I’ve been talking for the last almost two decades on the One New Man and believe it or not, no I won’t go into it, I’m persecuted for that.  It seems as though God shows me something before it happens and I get all the flack and then the people that gave me the flack they join in once they see that it’s God.  But I can tell you exactly what Isaiah said “I’m about to do this new thing and it’s already begun do you not see it?”  It’s found in John 17:21; now you’ve heard this preached many different ways, but here’s how I believe the Spirit of God is showing me and it’s Jesus’ prayer.  “That they also may be one,” who is they?  There were only two people groups at that time Jews and Gentiles that’s who that they is.  Some people say “Oh Baptist, or Catholics.”  No, they didn’t even exist, this was before Jesus died and rose from the dead and they Jew and Gentile also maybe one.  And what’s the repercussion when Jew and Gentile become one?  Nothing short of that the world may believe.  God is telling us somehow in the spirit realm when Jew and Gentile become one in Jesus the world is going to believe.  It’s going to release a glory; well the next verse explains it John 17:22 Jesus is saying to you “And the glory which you gave Me Father God I have given them.”  In other words, the same glory that was available to Jesus is going to be on us.  When?  When Jew and Gentile become one in Jesus, that’s what Paul is talking about in Ephesians Chapter 2 verse 14-15 and then the last verse 22.  It’s talking about Jesus “For He Himself is our peace, who has made both;” again who’s both? Jew and Gentile. “One and has broken down the middle wall of separation so as to create in Himself One New Man” and in the Greek it really says “One New Humanity.”  But most translations say man so I use that, “So as to create in Himself One New Man from the two thus making peace.”  And of course Paul was very Jewish so assuming that he knew the Hebrew for peace, which of course he did it’s shalom. The word shalom has many meanings but here I believe it means completeness.

So what happens when the two become one?  It’s complete, what is complete?  That last verse now in Ephesians 2:22.  Now you are also being built together for a… I’m going to put the word complete and it isn’t there it was in the earlier verse but it helps you understand it… “In whom you also are also are being built together for a complete dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”  How would you like a complete dwelling place of God in the Spirit?  “I pray that they…Jew and Gentile…might be one so the glory that was on Jesus will be on you so that the world will believe.”  Can you see why Paul got so excited?  And I’m getting pretty excited right now come to think of it. The same thing in Psalm 122:6; only city in scripture we’re commanded to pray for, did you know that?  That’s quite a profound statement. The only city in scripture we’re commanded to pray for is Jerusalem. This is the command “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem” and many people say “What does peace mean?  Well I believe that it’s that same Hebrew word completeness, “Pray for the completeness of Jerusalem,” what’s the completeness of Jerusalem?  Nothing short of Jesus coming to rule and reign the world.  And the completeness of Jerusalem so the world will believe means Jewish people coming back into the Jewish olive tree it’s that simple.  That’s what you’re doing when you’re praying for the completeness of Jerusalem.  And God if it’s necessary bribes us, He says “If you’ll do that, may they prosper that love thee.”  That’s what it says in Psalm 122:6, and the word prosper in the Hebrew means “Heart peace.”  “May you have heart peace that evangelize the Jew so we can have true peace in Jerusalem.”  Wow I could speak on that the whole time, but then it get even better.  How could it get better?  Well, come with me on a little trip to Ezekiel 47 verse 9.  I’m reading from the Amplified Bible other Bibles put this in foot note, I like the Amplified because it spells it out, it’s talking about the river and this is amazing river, the river of God. It says “Wherever the double river shall go.”  What’s the double river?  I already told you Jew and Gentile “Wherever the double river shall go every living creature shall live and everything shall live where ever the river goes.”  Well Jesus defined that river under the new covenant He said “We’re going to have rivers of living water pouring out of our belly,” that’s that thing that’s about ready to happen I can feel it and we’re going to see the greatest move of God’s Spirit.  But I’m getting a little bit a heard of myself.   Roman’s 11:15 describes it, “For if there being cast away,” whose there? The Jewish people, “For if the Jewish people being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead.”  In other words Paul is saying “When Jewish people come to the Lord,” well when they were cast away the whole world was reconciled. I mean if it was a blessing the Jewish people rejected their Messiah, Paul says “How much greater blessing when they receive their Messiah it’s going to be life from the dead,” resurrection power, creative miracles like the world has never seen, a release of miracles like the world has never seen.

What you say “What Sid what’s the big deal with the miracles I mean why do you make such a big deal about it?”  Well, you would make a big deal about it if you saw that when miracles happen people are open to the gospel, the spiritual scales are removed from the eyes of Jewish people.  People from other religions are totally wide open to the gospel, the purpose of the miracle is to demonstrate there is a living God whose concerned about every hair on our head. I get excited but these creative miracles happening I can just see someone that was recently came back from war and is missing both of their legs, and modern science praise God is doing wonderful things and their even able to run in Olympic type events with artificial legs.  But what if God gave us brand new legs, that’s a sign and a wonder; that’s the life from the dead resurrection power that’s about ready to be released.

But you have to understand the law of evangelism.  The law of evangelism is started with God the Father, when God wanted to reach the world because God so loved the whole world, what did He do?  He went to the Jew first, Abraham, right?  Now when Jesus wanted to reach the world many people don’t understand this but Jesus Himself said “I go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”  Was that only because He was only interested in Jewish people?  No, He knew that when he planted a seed in a Jew Genesis 12:3 would come forth and there would be a great Gentile revival. Paul the apostle to the Gentiles, what does he say in Roman’s 1:16 “I’m not ashamed of the gospel because the gospel is the power of God… someone’s hip was just healed in Jesus name.  The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.  Paul the Apostle to the Gentile’s and then says to the Jew first, you see when the patterns right the glory shows up.  The pattern is God went to the Jew first to reach the world; Jesus went to the Jew first to reach the world.  Paul went to the Jew first to reach the world.  What you must understand is there’s a spiritual law it’s called the law of evangelism; when you go to the Jew first it opens up a greater door of revival among Gentiles than if you went to the Gentile first.

Amos speaking revival, have you ever read about the greatest revival to ever hit planet earth.  Amos 9 verse 11 to 13 tells us about it; well unfortunately I’ve got to stop right now but I’ll start right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.  And what I have tell you is so important, you see many years ago I had a dream from God and God said, commissioned me literally to write a book of Jewish testimonies, and he said, “More Jewish people would come to know him through this book than anything I’d ever done.”

Sid: I’ve got George Barna on the telephone and I’m speaking to him from his research center in Ventura, California.  And those that are not familiar with George Barna he has come up with research that is predicting what will happen in the future in Christianity as well as in the secular arenas. The thing is his research it proves to be true.  Now in your book “Revolution” you quote in less than 20 years by the year 2025 only about 30% of Christians will be expressing their faith in a local church; that’s quite a trend. What’s accounting for that?

George: That’s I think and that’s an absolutely startling reality that we’re already seeing come to pass and it’s not that people are saying “Well, I’m just going to distance myself from faith all together.”  What we’re finding is that they’re shifting the place through which they’re experiencing and expressing their faith.

Sid: So you mean they’re switching from one church to another church.

George: Not so much from one church to another but from one approach to being the Body of Christ to a different approach. Let me explain we know for instance we know right now in our country if we were to study as we have through our research how people experience and express their faith somewhere in about the order of two thirds of the entire population has their primary means of spiritual experience and expressions through a local congregational formatted church.  You’ve got maybe 5 to 10% who have that experience and expression through an alternative form of church whether that’s a house church, or a market place ministry, or a cyber-church you’ve got maybe 5% or so a little bit less we estimate who have their family as their primary place where spiritual growth and development and expression takes place.  You’ve got another 20 to 25% of the population that use different elements coming out of our culture whether it’s the media or the arts as their primary way of experiencing the expressing their faith.  Now if we jump ahead 20 years and remember we said “Right now we’ve got about 2/3’s of population that rely upon a local church as we typically think of it, that’s going to be cut in half in the next 20 years or so.” Why? Because people are saying “You know what it’s not meeting my needs, it’s not allowing me to meet other peoples’ needs it’s really holding me back from allowing me to be the person who God placed me here on earth to be.  And so they’re finding different ways of experiencing the presence of God, of interacting with the living God of expressing their faith to God and to His people.  Of serving needy people throughout the country and certainly their community and so a large portion of that 1/3 that right now is in churches that will be dropping out that is going to be shifting to these alternative forms of church.  Again whether that’s house churches, market place ministries, cyber-churches, independent worship events; all kinds of things taking place.  And at the same time with all the new technologies being born we’re having many more people also relying upon the new media to give them the opportunity not only to absorb information but to connect with other people and to be challenged in their relationship with God.  One of the saddest things I’ve said that we’ve seen is that there doesn’t seem to be much of a shift in terms of how many people are treating their family as a place of faith, really the central place of faith.  Of course you go back into the Old Testament and what you find is God says “That’s where it’s supposed to start, that’s the catalyst for all of this.”  And yet we don’t see any growth taking place in that arena.

 Sid: It’s almost amazing it’s sort of like the parents ship the children off to be trained in God to the church rather than assuming their responsibility.

George: We’ve done a lot of research related to how ministry among children happens.  What we discovered is that most parents do not feel that they know how to raise a young person to be a spiritual champion. So what they do is they look for experts whom they can pass their children off on.  And so the local church becomes their first step because they say “Well, you know here’s a place that says ‘That’s their arena of expertise’ and so if we simply take the kids there and enroll them in some classes and programs that will take care of it; my job is not so much to teach them as a parent what it means to be a devout follower of Christ.  My job is to bring them to a place who will do that for me.” Of course that is about unscriptural as you can get.

Sid: Is the home school movement changing some of that?

George: To some extent in fact as we did the research of this book “Revolution” we were identifying revolutionaries around the country.  One of the things that emerged is that so often when somebody’s life is radically transformed by God it doesn’t happen in a local church but it happens in affinity group that their a part of.  And one of those kinds of affinity groups that we’ve identified are people who are homeschooling because it’s kind of unusual for a homeschooler to be isolated.  Usually home-school families are connected with other home-school families in the community and their share a lot of dynamic experiences together.

Sid: Now tell me just out of curiosity do you have any idea of this new breed that you have labeled revolutionaries, are they a threat when they’re in a local church?  Does a pastor want this person in his church or does the pastor is he threatened?

George: Well, there is a pattern actually that we discovered that usually happens and it tends to be triggered by some kind of a transformation that happens in the individual’s life.  That person then goes back to the leaders in the church and says “Check this out look at what God has done in my life, we’ve got to figure out a way to allow this to happen with everybody here.”  And typically, not in every case, but typically the leaders of the church say “Well, you know we’re really happy for you, but you got to understand we know what we’re doing we’ve got a plan, we’ve got a budget, we’ve got buildings, we’ve got programs, we’ve got staff, we’ve got all kinds of stuff already in place.  So rather than you coming to us and saying “Hey, let’s change what we’re doing to facilitate God doing with others what He did with you, why don’t you just look at what we’re already offering and figure out how to get plugged in.”  And so what happens is that individual then who’s gone through this transformation becomes frustrated because it’s almost like we’re disinviting the Holy Spirit from doing His work among God’s people.  And so then the process is they tend to hang around in the church a little while longer they tend to get frustrated; they leave, they tend to be isolated for a while they realize that doesn’t work, and then they start branching out into new and different types of personal relationships with other revolutionaries and other ministries that enable them to really begin to blossom as a follower of Christ.

Sid: Now this is amazing you state in your book also by the year 2025, less than 20 years from now, 70% of Christians will be part of the revolutionaries who want to experience God, but not in a religious sense.

George: We’re finding that a lot of people are looking for authenticity with their faith, their tired of programmatic activities. Wherever they can find a living God that’s what they want.  If they can find them in a local church that’s great you know this not about “Hey let’s close down churches.”  If local churches can bring people to the foot of the cross and really help them to be the church man you couldn’t ask for more than that.

Sid: But it’s so difficult to do what you’ve saying from the pastor’s viewpoint they’re only so many slots open in a spectator sport called “Christianity” today.

George: Well, you know certainly I think you’ve kind of hit on one of the key issue which is Christianity was never meant to be a spectator sport.  Jesus never asked people to come and watch him do ministry, the thing that He constantly said to them is “Come follow me.”  And when they followed Him He incorporated them into the activities that He was doing whether it was prayer or healing or whatever it maybe.  And that’s what we…

Sid: But how do you do that with 10,000 people in your church?

George: Maybe you can’t have a church of 10,000 maybe that shouldn’t be our goal. You got to remember Jesus never died on the cross to fill church auditoriums He died on the cross for people’s lives to be radically transformed so that they would be more like Him.  They would have His mind, they would have His commitment, they would have indeed His power through the Holy Spirit working within them and through them.  And sometimes maybe that gets lost if what happens in a large church is we have performance as opposed to true ministry. Not all large churches have that issue, but some do.

Sid: Okay in a few sentences describe to me what is the revolutionary mindset?

George: Well, really it’s one where you are rethinking what the world is all about. You realize that you’ve got to have a different world view; a different set of eyes through which you see how things work. And the way to recalibrate your mind and your heart is to go back and study the scriptures and pray and listen to the Lord leading you in terms of how does all this work?  What is Your role, why did I place you here.  How do you fit in, what is your the unique thing that you bring to the Kingdom of God as we see it played out here on earth.

Sid: You wrote this book called “Revolution” in your heart of hearts who do you want to see get this book and what will it do for them.

George: Well, there really are two different groups of people of that will benefit greatly from it.  One certainly are revolutionaries; that’s who I wrote it primarily to.  Because I want them to be encouraged, I want them to be informed, I want them to feel supported, and we’re trying to surround this book with different other activities that we’re doing to help connect revolutionaries together. Because Christianity is not an isolation experience it’s the connectivity experience. But secondly, I also want leaders within the existing institutional churches to understand the fact that you know what, it’s not about programs and events and performance it really is about helping each and individual find themselves             in Christ.  And releasing them to be all that they need to be that’s all these revolutionaries want is to be the greatest Christian they can possibly be blessing others and God every moment of every day.  And so for an individual who has been raised perhaps with Bible college or seminary, and they’ve been taught all the standard practices, for them to understand you know what a lot of that stuff really has nothing to do with what Jesus came to earth for.

Sid: The biggest hottest thing in Christianity across America today is what’s called “Seeker Sensitive” it seems to me these revolutionaries it wouldn’t satisfy them.

George:  Yeah you know that’s a whole different issue because of course the seeker sensitivity movement is really geared toward reaching people who are outside the boundaries of the institutional church at the moment. What we find is revolutionaries have a whole different approach to these individuals that might be called seekers and that’s not so much to bring them to a place so they experience an event, but it’s to engage them in an ongoing and ever deepening dialogue about what is mean…

Sid: Lets pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast…