It's Supernatural

Sid:  Now, my guest, Chuck Pierce had a revelation from God when he was eighteen, which has affected his entire life.  Based on these revelations he was able to break off years maybe centuries of vexation on his family and curses on his family; and came into all this revelation.  But on yesterday’s broadcast I said, “I was going to tell everyone something that will astound them; you revealed that God showed you that by 2016 China will dominate the economy and  not just in the United States, but even worldwide.”  And I said to you “How could that be Chuck?  China is not particularly a friend of Israel and you said to me.

Chuck:  They will be one of the greatest nations that see the investment of Israel for a season.  Starting in 20 by 2016 through 2026 they will see that Israel teaches them how to prosper in days ahead.

Sid:  Well, you know there are many people that are one issue people in elections.  Some people, there one issue is their pocketbook, other people there one issue is moral issues such as homosexuality, or abortion and rightfully so I might say.  But I’m becoming more and more aware that if someone is a one issue voter that one issue must be does that one woman have a grasp of the blessings of God or the curses of God as a result of being a friend of Israel?

Chuck:   Sid, look how Germany has made recovery, look how they moved forward because they too have recognized and come into a measure of reconciliation with Israel.  I’m going to tell you you’re going have to tell you’re going to have to look and say how do we align?  If not, see what’s happening now it’s going to be the Middle East, it use to be Israel in the Middle East, now it’s going to be the Middle East against Israel and you’re going to have to determine which group you’re running with.  Now that’s just how simple it is, and you’re going to have to look at nations and how there aligning around Israel because the book of Ephesians says, all nations will reconcile around Israel.

Sid:  What do you see Chuck if I might be bold enough to ask you, for the next five years in the United States of America?

Chuck:  Well, I see a… it’s almost like a tug-a-war.  I see a pulling apart, but this isn’t like what we’ve seen in the past.  I see a state by state by state people trying, leaders trying to determine how will they profit, the issue will become profit ability, but you can only profit, come into a true profit, profit ability through your understanding of covenants.  So you’re going to see state by state by state determining how they’re going align in trade agreements in days ahead and that’s going to affect everyone in their entire state.

Sid:  So, if I’m hearing you right, what you’re saying is it’s not an issue of the United States of America, it’s an issue even of individual states as to whether they’re going to align covenantally with God by being a blessing to Israel or not align covenantally with God.

Chuck:  See Sid that goes back to your initial statement, but if a curse was neutralized from civil war era back to slavery then why are seeing this pulling apart?  Well, we’re now going to hit the real root and what you’re going to find out now in your particular territory is how is the church first of all in that territory aligning with God’s covenant plan with Israel.  And some of you are going to be very surprised that some of the denominations that were evangelical in the last season really weren’t pro Israel and then you’re going to see how the economy and the government is aligning with Israel.  And what it’s going to do is it’s going to start pulling a nation apart again.  So that in the nutshell is what; it’s almost like pause and think about it, we are coming into the greatest tug-a-war our nation has known since probably the civil war.  And this time it’s over a nation called Israel, but it’s really about the God of Israel.

Sid:  And in the midst of this tugging as you put it, is it possible for individual Christians to be blessed, in the midst of this chaos?

Chuck:  Listen, I am telling you the favor of God’s going to come down on God’s people, the favor of God’s going to rest on us, the favor of God.  We’ll have favor with the world; Jesus grew in stature with God and man for a season.  We are coming into a place of new types of favor, but in the midst of it and we’re going to come into a new supernatural awareness.  That’s another reason I wrote this book, “A Time to Defeat the Devil,” we are unaware of the supernatural activity ahead in the next five years.  So to specifically answer your question, the next five years are, we enter into a supernatural dimension where evil expression will seen and heard as well as a super abundant grace will be displayed in the earth, a miracle working grace.

Sid:  But, you know what, it’s time for believer’s to break off the shackles of their vexation, of their curses, and that’s what you teach in this book and move into the power of Passover.  I mean there are amazing things you talk about the power of the Passover Blood.

Chuck:  Well, see the thing about it is we have to understand His blood is supernatural, and the way we express it; and now here’s the thing, now God gave me this book Sid.  He showed me righteous Lot’s spirit got vexed by being in a Sodom and Gomorrah.  And remember Abraham went to war and he went into intercession, but he couldn’t change the atmosphere of Sodom and Gomorrah.  And so in the midst of it what I saw was as times change, our spirit man can become vexed again, it doesn’t mean we’re not a righteous people; it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have a way of escape for us.  What it means is we can become vexed so that our surroundings are controlling us.  So in this book I talk about how to get your spirit free, very few books ever talk about how to get your spirit free; they talk about how to restore your soul but not renew your spirit.  This book is about spirit renewal because we are coming into a season of the spirit realm; both dark and the Holy Spirit manifesting in God’s people again.

Sid:  I believe that and this is why and you know a lot of people don’t understand why I emphasis the supernatural so much, because I don’t see how a man or a woman can fulfill their destiny unless they move in the supernatural of God.  And if they don’t move in the supernatural of God we even know from scriptures they’re going to move in a counterfeit; much easier to move in a counterfeit if you’ve never seen the real thing.

Chuck:  Well, it’s called Sid, we forget the anti-Christ Spirit goal is to rule the pulpit, and I’m going to tell you what, we’ll get into this religious thing, but we’ll never come into the power of being the sons and daughters God’s made us to be.  And He’s saying I want your spirit liberated, I want your spirit vibrant, I want your spirit renewed so that Holy Spirit can manifest in you and you can do the greater works than what I did.

Sid:  What is your desire for people that read your new book “Time to Defeat the Devil?”

Chuck:  To know the Glory of God and why would I say that?  Because I don’t just go to war with the devil, I mean I think we live in a world that is decaying and you can start looking for all the devils and their everywhere.  What I want people to understand is the Glory of God.  I feel like David understood the Glory of God therefore he knew when the Glory of God left or when it ebbed from him.  I want you as you read this book to renew your spirit so that the Glory of God is so vibrant in your spirit where you sense His presence.  Therefore when the enemy enters into your domain you can say, “Be gone in the name of Jesus.”

Sid:  Well, were coming into those times, were coming to such a…as a matter of fact I’ve been feeling the Glory of God just as I said that I found that someone was just healed someone with a pain in their neck has just been healed in Jesus Name.  Someone with a pain in their back has just been healed in Jesus Name, someone with a pain in their arm; pains are gone now in Jesus Name; that’s that Passover blood.  But you need this revelation; there are few prophets that have end time revelation, like Chuck Pierce.

Sid:  Now the thought crossed my mind, we spend at least some more some less a third of our life sleeping.  What if while we are sleeping and we’re in that receptive state we could hear so clearly from God in dreams and get direction for perhaps for disasters that are coming in our life.  For instance I have friends that live in Israel and especially when the suicide bombs were going off and their believers before they would leave their home they would have to hear from God.  What if your dreams you had the ability to understand, but I have to be candied with you I’ve interviewed many people that have taught on understanding dreams and they talk about symbols and one symbol means this and another symbol needs that.  And to be honest with you I’m such a pragmatist that if I don’t know its God I don’t want to speculate but I do want to know if it’s God.  And so I kind of laid a lot of this aside, but then I got a hold of a Course by Mark Virkler.  He’s been a guest several times on Messianic Vision and he has designed and his gift to the Body is teaching.  He has to first learn a principal for himself then he uses it for himself then he teaches it to other people.  And he’s just come out with a three CD set, it’s actually five sessions titled hear God through your dreams plus a workbook that will cause you to be able especially in the times that are coming to know what God has for you.  To be just like my Jewish Believing friends in Israel to know whether they should take a bus or not; to know whether they should even leave their apartment or not.  What a wonderful thing, Mark Virkler, how did you get into understanding dreams and were you just like me?  Where you someone that is so pragmatic that you would have these symbolic dreams, not have a clue what God was saying and so just forget them all unless they happened to be literal?

Mark:  Well, Sid I got into dreams because I met a remarkable individual.  I was up in Toronto teaching…

Sid:  No but even before you met him, what was your attitude towards your own dreams?  Were you like me or did you try to understand them or what did you do?

Mark:   Well, I never took them seriously; I just figured it was all pizza you know because it was all just…

Sid:  Oh, you were like me.

Mark:  Just a dream.

Sid:  Just, I don’t eat pizza anymore but that’s okay I can dream about it, go ahead bad joke.

Mark:  Okay and I just didn’t take them seriously because they weren’t rational, they weren’t logical and for me everything had to be logic and ration and reason.

Sid:  Okay, me to that is my biggest asset and my biggest liability but go ahead.

Mark:   Well, exactly when God anoints our reasoning then He can clean it up.

Sid:  Okay, so how did this door open to you so to speak of understanding dreams?

Mark:  Well, I was doing a seminar up in the Toronto area, my seminar on “How to Hear God’s Voice” got done at 5:00 and I heard that Herman Riffle was in the area doing a seminar on dream interpretation, Christian dream interpretation and I found out where he was, he wasn’t very far away.  I went over for the evening session and got introduced to a statesman in the Body of Christ who had walked with dreams for years and years and was teaching principals for how to hear God speak to you through your dreams.

Sid:  Tell me a bit about this because he intrigues me, this Herman Riffle, he’s in Heaven now but tell me about him.

Mark:  Well, he was a Baptist Pastor and he got interested in dreams so he went and got some training on dreams.  He worked with scriptures and he wrote several books on dreams.  He is now, he was ninety-three when he died a year or two ago.  But the Lord spoke to him through dreams, counseled him through dreams, guided him through dreams and we were so intrigued that we brought the person to our Bible School and him teach us and taped him teaching us on dreams many many years ago.

Sid:  Well it was actually as I understand it he had a dream that changed his destiny, he would have never lived to ninety three if he didn’t have this dream and understand it; tell me about it.

Mark:   Well, he had a lot of dreams, one of the dreams that he shares in his book is he’s walking along the side of mountain on narrow path with his family behind him and all of a sudden the path crumbles beneath him and he and his family go down to destruction.  And he wakes up and journals the body and says, “Lord, what does this dream mean?”  And the Lord said this he said, “Herman this private fantasy life that your engaged in, that you think is so carefully controlled, He said, if you do not get off this path that you’re on it’s going to take you and your family down to destruction.  And so Herman repented, he got off that path, he stayed faithful to his wife, the two of them were married and like I said, he died in 1998, he died at 93 years of age.

Sid:  I have no doubt that he would have died prematurely if he did not have the dream and the understanding.

Mark:  Yeah, wonderful counsel from the Wonderful Counselor correcting him keeping him on the path of life.

Sid:  After you began to study his lifetime of revelations on understanding dreams how long did it take you to start understanding your dreams?

Mark:  Well, I was fortunate to be in a Bible School where I got a group of half a dozen, dozen people around me and we just got together weekly and we began to share our dreams and study dreams in scripture.  And it really speeds up your growth if you can do it with a group and so we spent about six months, we did three months of training and then three more months of just practicum.  Just coming together and working with our dreams as a group interpreting them together and then at the end of that six months we all felt confident that we were able to get God’s message to us through those dreams.

Sid:  Now you yourself had a reoccurring dream.  And first of all if you have a reoccurring dream what does that mean to you?

Mark:   Well, that means you didn’t hear the message the first time the dream talked to you.

Sid:  Oops.  Ha-ha.

Mark:  Same reason your mother repeats herself or you repeat yourself to your children when they didn’t get it the first time.  And so I had reoccurring dream for about fifteen years of my life and that I had had a stroke in the dream and I would walk up paralyzed, feeling I had had a stroke, I felt bloated, my arms and head and face.  And then I had the elders pray for me once for deliverance prayer what came out was an actual demon of fear of stroke and I had picked that up when somewhere about the age of eight to ten years of age.  I was very close to my grandfather, he died very unexpectedly instantaneously of what I perceived to be a stroke.  It wasn’t quite correct, but that was my childhood perception and I was traumatized by that and demons are not gentlemen so they entered, a demon of fear of stroke entered during that trauma.  And I had a fear of having a stroke for years; it showed up as a reoccurring dream in my heart showing that I had a wound in my heart that needed prayer ministry.  Once the elders prayed the deliverance prayer that demon came out with that same manifestation that I had in the dream.  My wife was in the livingroom, she said that it looked like I was having a stroke when my face was bloated, my tongue was bloated, and it came out and it came out and now twenty to twenty-five years and I’ve never had that dream since then.

Sid:  Mark, what is more important to me is not that you got this revelation, not that you get dreams every week and understand, really understand what God is saying every week.  But can I, can my Mishpochah do the same thing?

Mark:  Yes, every single one that’s listening, you can learn to hear God through your dreams, you can learn to receive His wonderful counsel because He says that He counsels us a night.

Sid:  Wait a second you have dreams at least once a week where God speaks to you so clearly.

Mark:  Yes.

Sid:  You’re telling me that everyone can, once a week now.

Mark:  Absolutely, I guarantee it.

Sid:  Okay, you heard that Mishpochah he guarantees it, I got it out of him.

Mark:  I can give them four or five things that they can do during this series and if they do those four or five things I will guarantee that they will have dreams every week from God where the Wonderful Counselor is giving them counsel to improve the quality of their lives.

Sid:  Now you have many many testimonies of people that have taken your course and what’s happened to them.  Tell me about one person.

Mark:   Alright I’m going to tell you about a lady Susan Perniglia, she developed a Christian Dance School out of hearing God’s voice out of both dreams and also journaling about the dream.  Her husband Salvatore was taking courses with us and they got married, he shared the courses with her and she had a triple dream experience where, she was in nursing school, trained to be a nurse and the Lord redirected her through those three dreams.  She didn’t get the message the first time or the second time, so he made it very clear the third time and she changed her course.  So she got out of nursing school and what the Lord told her that she should become a dancer for Him and set up a dance school.  And that’s what the dream said, so she went ahead, set up a dance school as a result of that.  And a testimony she shares back a couple of years ago it’s called a King and a testimony.  She shares back a couple of years ago, it’s called the Kings dancers, it had grown from four students to One hundred Sixty-five students.  She had nine staff teachers who was teaching it and four different locations in the Albany, New York region.  They offered a variety of dances like ballet, tap, Irish Step, Hip Hop, Flag dancing, banner dancing and prophetic drama.  And all of that was it came out of a triple dream experience where God redirected her and said, “No nursing is not what I called you to, I have called you to be a dancer and to train dancers.”  And she said, “It’s been miraculous how the Lord has anointed it, they’ve done dance for both churches and secular situations.”

Sid: You know Mark the thing that’s crossing my mind right now is in these tense economic times that we’re living in; I believe that scripture is true that says “The wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.”  And what would happen if God were go give a dream to those that are listening right now, redirect their path and in bad times they would do terrific.

Mark:  He wants to do that, He’s dying to do that, He died literally on Calvary so that he could restore that kind of relationship and give that kind of counsel to his children day by day, week by week and month by month.

Sid:  On yesterday’s broadcast I was talking to violist Ruth Fazal about the Jewish heart that God had given her and she had what she calls an awakening vision in 2007, tell me about that Ruth.

Ruth:  Well, again it was at one of these Glory Nights in my home and it seems like lots of stuff happens there.  And I saw something like, it was like watching a movie and I was actually standing at my keyboard at the time and it was as I was playing I was seeing this movie.  To just tell it really briefly, it’s the sound, it’s seeing a large group of people on a desert.  Their camped there, they’re kind of in a comfortable place and then all of a sudden from the distance there is the sound of the trumpet.   And the sound of the trumpet gets closer and closer and as they begin to hear it and they make themselves ready then we realize that actually the One playing the trumpet is the Lord Himself.  And He’s calling His people away and He’s says it’s urgent, He’s says “You can’t stay here any longer” and He’s like wooing them to come with Him.  And then there’s this incredibly, there’s this ride across the desert plain and seeing them and they’re hanging on for dear life because they don’t know where He’s taking them.  But, then he brings them into the realm of His Glory and it’s a place of encounter.  It’s a place of deep encounter, it’s a place of deep worship and then in the midst of that they hear the sound of all creation groaning and crying out.  And they’re so aware of what God hears.  And then in the midst of that they hear God begin to say to them, “Comfort my people, speak tenderly to Jerusalem.”

Sid:  So there’s a tie in between intimacy with God and comforting His people, that’s what I’m hearing you say.

Ruth:  Yes, that’s it when we touch His heart we are going to find what His heart is beating with.  And His heart is beating with His love for His people.  And we can’t miss it, if you come deep inside His heart, we can’t miss it, there is no way.

Sid:  Well, I believe we’re in a stage right now, you see as I study the scriptures God uses Israel to chastise the nations based on Genesis 12:3.  I’ll bless those who bless His people; I’ll curse those who curse them.  Now, God chastises Israel Himself, but he causes actually nations that he wants to bring under judgment to do things like dividing the land etc.  So I believe that nations are being evaluated by God right now and individuals are being evaluated by God right now.  In your CD and you talk about intimacy with God and thru your violin it literally goes so deep.  Do you have people tell you how deep it ministers to them, healing they’re inner hurts and wounds?

Ruth:  Yeah, absolutely and I think that this is the thing that happens more than anything is that really deep place of connecting with Him and of that healing and of the intimacy.  And you know deep intimacy creates a longer for deeper intimacy and that’s the thing that I find that the longing creates a longing which creates a longing.  And you know the deeper we go the more we want to go.

Sid:  That’s what I’m finding when I personally listen to your music, it’s causing me to want to be closer and closer to the Lord.  Tell me about the selection “Dance” from Songs From the River.

Ruth:  Well, you know the Lord He comes to us and He says, “Will you dance with me?” And it’s oh, such an intimate thing isn’t it?  It’s a, and He draws us so close into Him and it comes a point I think, when He says, “Will you dance with Me?”  Which is, it’s like a partnership, it’s not just about feeling good in the intimacy, it’s about, will you dance with Me?  Will you come and partner with me and see the things that I’m doing and come and do them with Me?  And it’s very much about partnership.  Intimacy is about partnership, so we come to the point where we really want to know what’s on His heart.  And we begin to partner with Him to see those things come about.

Sid:  Now all of your music is spontaneous, it’s live, do you ever feel like sometimes you won’t know what to play?  I mean you’re human, don’t you?

Ruth:  Ha-ha, a…well, you know there was one time when, there was one time when…ha-ha,  there was one time, but it wasn’t because I didn’t know what to play, it was because I couldn’t play.  I was playing actually in a Concentration Camp in Terezin, Theresienstadt and I felt like all music was sucked out of me.  And there was no song, there was nothing and I couldn’t put my bow on the string.  Nothing, and that was such a deep experience of the Lord, until He said to me, I heard Him say, “Play “The Cry,” play “The Cry.”  And so I just almost…

Sid:  The cry of the Jewish people, I mean how many people were murdered there, I mean in that Progue Concentration Camp?

Ruth:  Well, they weren’t so much so murdered there, but they were sent on to the transports.  But for instance my focus was the children, there were more than 15,000 children went through Terezin and about one hundred of them survived.

Sid:  So you literally were playing they’re cries on the violin.

Ruth:  Oh, yeah and I think that what happened was at that moment, the reason I think as I think back on this, the reason I couldn’t play was because I was touching that sense in them of everything was taken away from them, everything was sucked out of them in that time when they were there.  And I think I just touched that for a moment.

Sid:  Are you ready for some deep, deep healing in your spirit?  Deep, deep intimacy with God?  Deep, deep physical healing?  Let’s hear “Dance?”  (Worship Insert)

Sid:  My guest is Red Hot for the Messiah, you know it says to him who is forgiven much, they love much.  My guest, Nasir Siddiki comes from an Egyptian background, in fact if you go back enough generations his great ancestors were Mohammed’s best friend.  So he doesn’t know Jesus, he develops a sickness, he’s dying in the hospital and Jesus comes in; and the way he started by having a healing from Jesus.  By the way Nasir do you believe when Jesus came into that hospital room there was transference of healing as well as revelation of who he was?

Nasir:  Absolutely yes, had there not been a transference of healing I would have had an experience to get saved but I would have still been sick.

Sid:  You probably would have died too.

Nasir:  Yes, the next morning the doctor’s said, “That he has gone into remission.”  So definitely the answer is yes.

Sid:  Okay, now the miracle of miracles both Nasir and his wife get physically healed.  His wife had MS and she was in horrible shape.  They both should have died, but she was healed through understanding the word.  Nasir was healed through a sovereign act of God.  In your experience it seems to me also Nasir that most people are healed the way that your wife was healed.

Nasir:  Yes, I did a study in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and of the nineteen healing that are recorded 2/3 Jesus either said or implied by your faith you have been healed.  And so my wife’s healing was by her faith in the word that she had built by hearing the word.  My healing was by the gifts of the Spirit.

Sid:  Now the systems tried to come back on both of you, were you prepared or were you oh no, I’m sick, what did you do when that happened?  What did you do when it – who did it come back on first, you or your wife?

Nasir:  The doctors said to me that shingles is a virus that will never leave your body and that erupt at any time you’re under some severe stress.  So they said, “That it could come back.”  Well, I have experienced a whole lot more stress since that time and it has never come back.  They said to my wife that shingles, for me and multiple sclerosis for her could come back anytime also.  Well the key was this, the anointing will heal you but it is the word that will keep you healed.  When a Christian get’s healed the author of that sickness doesn’t move out of town, he’s still there and he’s going to bring that sickness back and he tried to bring shingles back on me.

Sid:  How did he try to bring it back what made you think that he was trying to?

Nasir:  Well, when you have shingles it’s like the skin is burning and it is a very tingly feeling and you start to feel that on the side of your neck or your shoulder or your ear; that was the beginning of the symptoms to bring the shingles back on.  The same with my wife with multiple sclerosis through seizures he tried to bring multiple sclerosis back on her.  Now we have to know the difference between a symptom and a sickness.  And until we know that difference what will happen is we will allow the sickness to come back on not realizing that the sickness was already dealt with 2000 years ago and these are now symptoms that are trying to come on.

Sid:  Okay, we realize, let me see if I have this straight now, your making a distinction between sickness and symptoms.

Nasir:  Correct.

Sid:  That makes sense to me, now once you realize this, all right in your case you started – in both your cases you started having symptoms.  What did you do about it?

Nasir:  We went back to the word of God because the anointing will heal you but only belief in God’s Word will keep you healed.  The word says, by His stripes we have, past tense, we’ve would not open our mouth; we would not start speaking the sickness is back on me again.

Sid:  But wait a second now, in your case are you telling me you didn’t even tell your wife?

Nasir:  No no, I told her that there was some tingling on the side, I did not acknowledge that the shingle is back on me.

Sid:  So you were being honest but being honest is saying yes, the tingling is there.

Nasir:  Correct.

Sid:  But disease is not, both are honest statements.

Nasir:  Correct, that is exactly right.  I acknowledge the symptom but I did not acknowledge the return of the sickness.  And then I dealt with the symptom.

Sid:  What did you do?

Nasir:  Well, the Bible says “What so every you bind, whatsoever you loose.”  We’ve been waiting for God to do something, but the authority on earth has been transferred to us.  Jesus stripped the devil, made a show of him openly, then He said, “All authority in Heaven and earth has been given to me and He gave that authority to us, the church to enforce.”  And so I use that authority, I use the Name that is above every name.

Sid:  Give me an example of something that you could have been literally saying when those symptoms were coming at you.

Nasir:  I commanded the tingling feeling that was attacking my body to go in Jesus Name.  I command every cell, every bone, every tissue to line up with the word of God.  It’s going to be healed, because it was healed 2,000 years ago and it had to line up with the word of God.  It’s wonderful what Jesus did on the cross, but we have to enforce what He did on the cross by what we believe and what we say.

Sid:  If you had done what 99.9% of the people that are believer, good believers would do and that is acknowledge the disease what do you believe would have happened?

Nasir:  That would have opened the door for the disease to come right back on and probably even in a worse state than it was before.

Sid:  How many people lose their healings?  And you know I’ve heard of so many cases and they don’t know this.  Kathryn Kulman had so many people healed; I think that she had more…  I had the privilege of going to her meetings and she had, I don’t know of anyone today that is moving with the word of knowledge in the miracles that she had.  But many people would lose their healing and she never taught on this area, because she obviously didn’t know.  She operated under the anointing and words of knowledge.

Nasir:  Yes, absolutely.  Today’s God’s people perish for lack of knowledge, not for lack of anointing, not for lack of power, but for lack of knowledge.

Sid:  Now you told me that God has given you insight into what’s coming to America, tell me that.

Nasir:  I believe with everything in me that healing is the dinner bell.  That healing is what we must see manifest not only in the church but as we as believer share this with others and people see that our Jesus is alive.  The tomb is empty and what He did yesterday he’s doing today and that is he is healing today.  And so as we release that anointing and people get healed and stay healed, I believe that will bring the end time revival.  I believe with everything in me that God wants Heaven more full than Hell.  And to do that we are going to have to have something that the world wants and the world needs and I believe that’s healing.

Sid:  I’m just wondering if the amount of sickness that is around today is not about ready to have Christians move into their finest hour and rather than expecting non believers to be in a building called the church, the church is not the building the church goes out to the four corners of this earth and prays for the sick and they say don’t give me any credit I just prayed in the Name of Jesus.

Nasir:  Wouldn’t it be awesome if every believer went around getting their coworkers, their relatives, their neighbors healed and then bringing them to church on Sunday to celebrate?

Sid:  … Nasir I have to believe that because you’re not speaking from theory; you’re speaking from first hand revelation of how the word of God operates.  I have to believe that many people when they hear this teaching are getting healed.  And even better than getting healed they are learning how to keep their healing.  And even better than learning how to keep their healing, they are going to be part of that end time army you talked about of praying for the sick.  Can you tell me one person that comes to mind that sat under this teaching and what happened to them?

Nasir:  We’ve had many, we’ve had testimonies of cancers shrinking, we’ve had testimonies of people getting out of wheelchairs, we’ve had testimonies of legs growing out, we’ve got testimonies of hearing aids being put down cause their ears were totally restored, eyes totally restored.  We have just an incredible number of testimonies that have been coming in, but not only are these people getting healed through that CD series, their learning how to stay healed and minister healing to those around them.

Sid:  Now, I don’t hear any doubt and unbelief on any of these things that we’re talking about, how come?

Nasir:  Well, because I have seen it happen in my life, I’ve seen it happen in my wife, the devil tried to put sickness on all three of sons.  They are all serving the Lord Jesus Christ today, the devil tried to put it on my brother, put it on my sister…

Sid:  Woops were out of time.

Sid:  My guest John Fenn is making me red hot for the Messiah, because we’re discussing his book, “Return of the First Church,” and it came as a result of three visitations from the Lord.  And one of the things John you did is you, after the revelation came as to what the first Church was like, what Jesus really wanted in the Church what was missing you began to do research as to how we actually started the way Jesus said, He wants the church to be and how it evolved to what we have today.  I wonder if you’d tell us a little bit about what your research revealed.

John:  Sure, sure.  Well, you know the first thing I noticed was all the homes was represented in the Gospel; all the miracles that Jesus did from the wedding feast at Cana to you know visiting Simon the leper or Zaccheus in his house or all the homes there and of course there was Pentecost.  I really began reexamining the New Testament and one of the things that I noticed was that none of the letters of the New Testament were addressed to leadership, they weren’t addressed to the pastors or the elders or whatever, it was addressed to the church at.  You know when Paul wrote his letters it was addressed to everybody.  And I also saw that when they were problems in the New Testament churches Paul did not say, now you elders should take care of this problem.  For instance in 1^st Corinthians 5 there’s a situation where a man has an illicit relationship with his stepmother and Paul says, and he chastises the whole church, he says you all should have dealt with this.  And then in the very next chapter he talks about two brothers who were suing one another and he says, “This should be settled within the church, the whole body should have handled this.  And so that got me thinking, and so when I started doing the research I realized that for the first nearly 300 years the Church was exclusively in home and that was in times of persecution and times when there wasn’t much persecution within the Roman Empire.  But then in 313, in the year 313 the Emperor Constantine issued an edict that legalized Christianity and over the next few decades what happened was that they began taking over the pagan temples which were set up in the auditorium style and building other buildings, so basically taking over a lot of the pagan temples and turning them into churches.  And Constantine and his successors then called people out of the houses into these former pagan temples into the auditoriums structure that we have today and we’ve been basically stuck in that same structure for seventeen hundred years.  Now what it did was it changed the nature of the relationship from depending on my brother or sister to help disciple me to my relationship with a building, my relationship with a paid clergy, my relationship with a program from that proceeded forth from that building.  And so it started to kill the relationship aspects of Christianity that had begun you know in the home and I’d have to go clear back to Adam and Eve and I’d go back to even Genesis when the Lord appeared to Abraham.  You know when He said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I’m about to do to Sodom and Gomorrah because I know that he is going to train up his children after him?  And then you can see all the way through there’s homes.  And I started realizing this is larger than saying “Oh, this is the way they did it in the first church; this is Genesis through Revelation.  And when we came out of that and came and into what I call the pyramid structure of the traditional church where there is a one head a pastor designated as the one who will be the font of God’s wisdom it made the gifts in the Body actually shut down.  They had no more place to function because they had to be silent and all face the same direction; and all listen to this one person you know be the you know be the spout of God’s wisdom for the day.  Where as in the home church when you’re all meeting together Paul said in 1^st Corinthians 14:26 “How is it brethren when you come together everyone of you has a Psalm a doctrine, a revelation, gifts of the Spirit.”  And so we have come 1700 years in that structure and that’s why in my journey when I looked all over the world, even though churches would say, we’re different in reality they weren’t.  They were all built around the building, the hierarchy and the structure that is just kills true relationships.

Sid:  Okay, how does what you’re saying differ from a good church with cell groups?

John:  Sure cell groups, there’s a huge difference between cell groups and house churches.  One of the main differences is that a cell group is still offered as a program as an option for the members of the congregation.  The main meeting is still the large congregational meeting say on Sunday.  Cells are offered as another program just like the neighborhood outreach, just like Sunday school, you know just like the Singles program and so cells are presented as another thing to become involved in.  In house church, each house church is independent; each house church stands on its own two feet.  Each house church stands on its own two feet; each house church takes care of its own people.  Now we may come together with other house churches and have a congregational style meeting, because you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.  There are large congregational style meetings even in the book of Acts Chapter four after Peter and John were chastised by the leaders they called everybody together.  So there are those times for those meetings, but that’s the exception rather than the rule. so cell churches are a program from a traditional church but a house church is an independent entity all by itself.

Sid:  Now, one of the things that intrigue me is the shape that a lot of your groups take, for instance you have one group that meets I think a couple times a month or once a month at Starbucks rather than the home.  Tell me about that.

John:  Ha-ha, in Fresno, California our affiliate there meets in a Starbucks every other Sunday and what really started out as an outreach one of the families in there had a son whose incarcerated in prison and would have different friends that he would meet in prison while he’s serving his term be released and after he led them to the Lord in prison, but have nowhere to go.  And often times these people would go to a living room of a stranger and they certainly would not darken the door of a traditional church.  And so they came up with the idea of why don’t we just be there a couple times a month in a Starbucks on a Sunday morning; and will pray for one another and will see what the Lord is saying and we’ll use it as a means to bring unchurched or dechurched people or people who don’t even know the Lord and bring them in to what we’re doing and hopefully lead them to the Lord.  So it really began as an outreach and a means of discipleship and I like that term unchurched or dechurched because we have a lot of both all over the world.

Sid:  Now another thing that intrigues me is out of the relationships, out of this desire for intimacy with God, hearing God’s voice, and relationships with one another miracles are the natural thing that occurs.  Tell me some miracles that are going on; I understand you have one house church that had someone that was raised from the dead.

John:  Let me tell you about one that’s associated in India with a five year old boy and people say, well that happened in India.  Well, I’ll tell you what, I could tell you a story of Naples, Florida of a young man who had his leg grow out a ½ inch or ¾ of an inch; he’d been in a car wreck and you know it wasn’t so much that I laid hands on this young man, talk about miracles here in the states.  But other members of other teenagers who knew him laid hands on him and they watched the Lord grow this boy’s injured leg out and become straight and the same length as the other and he went leaping and dancing around the room.

Sid:  He was headed for surgery and they didn’t have to operate.

John:  He was headed for surgery, he had been in a car accident, had his leg crushed and they said, “You know we’ve got to wait a little bit until you grow a little bit to do this.  And the only reason I slip this in here Sid, because people have the idea of you know we’re going to meet in the living room and nothing spectacular happens.  They have to understand that when Christ lives in you and you really understand, that anything can happen and that the Lord takes pleasure in moving through the average, quote unquote Christian.  You start thinking what can be, how might the Lord use me.  And that was exactly the case in Deli India with a little boy named, Argon and Argon Doss was his name and this happened in 2001.  And about 6:00 in the evening Argon walked under a live powerline that caught him right behind his left ear and electrocuted him and killed him.  And his parents took him to the clinic where they worked on him for two hours and finally they just gave up and they said, “I’m sorry your five year old, your little boy is dead.  And fortunately the parents were part of a small house church, small group of strong believers and they said, “Man can’t do it through his means, then we’re going to call our church together.  They took his body back to their house and gathered the people together; by the time they could gather everyone together and everything it was 10:00 in the evening.  But one of the ladies, the main lady who came was a lady a 60 year old widow named Sovetre; I want to say her name right.  Sovetre and she’s of the Dalet which is the untouchable in the traditional society.   She was a street sweeper and spent all her life as a street sweeper, but she was a main one who led the prayer and they prayed for Argon from 10:00 in the evening until 4:00AM and finally at 4:00AM suddenly Argon just took a breath and sat up.  Completely normal in every way, he still has a scar behind his left ear, but he was raised from the dead, it’s because of this little house church said, “You know what, we’ll just pray and worship God and really say that Argon time on the earth is not finished and they were determined and after six hours of prayer and worship the Lord brought him back to life.  And it was interesting my friend who went there and confirmed this who is also in house church found out when he was talking to this little street sweeper who headed up the prayer team and he said, “By the way, he said in the last six years that you’ve been a Christian you know how many dead people have you seen raised?”  And she answered quietly sixteen.

Sid:  You know the change that God told you would occur over the next few years where we wouldn’t recognize America?  I believe we won’t recognize Christianity because it will be closer to the book of Acts than what it is now.